Retribution and Permutation

[hatter]

I have been running a MOHAA server for a while now and have tried to keep it as cheat-free as possible. I am running Autokick to keep out the laggers and Delator 2.0.0.6 to keep out the cheaters.

But I have noticed that even with these programs catching laggers and cheaters that we still have people on the server getting a 5-1 or even higher kill-death ratio. Please note I am not a n00b and do not think that anyone that gets a high score is a cheater. But I was concerned and wanted to see if it was possible to cheat on my server.

So I made a few Google searches and came up with a full list of cheats for MOHAA. Wall hacks, Glowing Skins, Super Zoom. All in a tight little package called Retribution (Permutation was the old name of it). After playing with this thing for about an hour I have come to one conclusion...this thing is evil.

But after joining my server and turning on all of the features I learned something much more valuable:

DELATOR DOES NOT CATCH PERMUTATION OR RETRIBUTION!!

Permutation 3 and Retribution 1 went completely unchecked by my Delator server.

Am I only kidding myself? What is the point of running an anti-cheat program knowing that a package that offers all these cheats is readilly available and you won't get caught using it.

I read that EA will be releasing new patch for MOHAA soon, and that sv_pure will hopefully be fixed.

My question to the forum is this: Does any combination of anti-cheat software currently out detect or prevent these hacks, and will sv_pure be the answer to all of these problems? Since these hacks seem to add local files (and not modify any existing files) it would seem difficult to control.

And don't use this thread to advertise for ServerWatch. It's crap ok. :)

[Hammer]

Hatter,

The admin/anti-cheat community is doing a heck of a job working [mostly in the dark, thanks to EA] trying to prevent cheating on our servers. No combination of anti-cheat "hacks/fixes" will prevent cheating; sv_pure will not be the answer to cheating either.

No, Retribution/Permutation cannot be detected by any server-side app., you need to have a client-side agent checking all aspects of player's game to have some degree of confidence that they are not cheating. Even then, cheating will happen!

We're not n00bs! Just like the cheating community has a bunch of bright folks creating cheats, so does this community working against them. Also, please don't put down other folks' work unless you're prepared to provide a working solution of your own. :evil:

--[MC] Hammer

[hatter]

I apologize for knocking ServerWatch, I'm just sick of seeing every thread in here turn into a pitch for it. I have tried it and (as it is beta) it is buggy. It looks like it could turn into a great package though.

I guess I am just really frustrated trying to provide a "level playing field" and to know that Delator is not stopping some (I can only guess as to how many people aren't getting caught) of these cheaters.

I cannot give enough thanks for the people that wrote it as some of the cheaters are caught, but I think we need to begin a list of things that we know it DOESN'T catch.

Am I going to have to turn to taking screenshots of every user getting high scores on my server?

What is the name of the server/client package that CAN detect these cheats? I hate to have to turn my server into a password/client-side cheat detection/screenshot taking pain in the ass...

Is this the only answer?

[hatter]

I have had some luck running an Honesty.cfg file and Delator catching these wall hacks. I am still interested in learning the name of the app that can catch them all the time though (even if you have to install something else on the client).

One problem I had is that even with the new cfg file it was not catching the hacks all of the time. I am now to the point where I don't care what you have to put on the client I want this over with. :)

Thanks for any help.

[AOD_MR_SCARY]

Yea this is crap man........I feel your pain, I wish there was something u can scan with and not having to make Players Dl the Client-Side anti-cheat program.......Just sick of the odiots coming in our server and cheating and hacking.......And they always have the same remarks "I DONT CHEAT OR HACK" .........I know what these hacks do i have used them and tried them......One guy even said "ITs Not like u can turn them on and off" i mean come on that shit doesnt fly by me.......yea when he is shooting at the wall before somebody comes around the corner......OK whatever....Now it to the point where somebody that has a high score........that i dont know...I watch them for awhile and make my judgement there.......And in most cases i am right that they are cheating or hacking ........And i just Ban them and the provider.....I am not putting up with anymore........So i catch anybody that i think is cheating there done!!!!!!BYE BYE NO SOUP FOR YOU !!!!!!!
So hopefully someday there will be something...........And the EA pure if you are running Spearhead than it will work.........they are Not making it for Allied assault we are on our own.......

AOD_MR_SCARY

[Defiant]

all i can say is this,on my server announcement it says every 3 minutes...

"This server runs Delator 2.0.0.7 and Crowkings autokick,we may not catch all the cheaters,but we sure as hell put a dent in them"

As with the poll,i have downloaded almost every cheat,skin,and hacks i could find,i run a dedicated server with 1 player and test the Delator and CKautokick,zzzchameleons was not caught as were the 2 mentioned above,also i go to 2 well known cheat sites and ask them how to beat the anti cheat programs,9 out of 10 times they tell you,guess the best way to learn is to ask the guys who make em,lol.

I cannot stand for someone to ruin a good game by cheating, i spend almost $150.00 a month running servers,not to mention my time,it just seems a waste to go through all this trouble so someone who has no skill can ruin it for all of us,also i dont spend this money because i have to,i enjoy playing and giving other players a good server to play on.

But the good news is,from what i have noticed on some of the cheat sites is that a lot of the hackers and cheat makers are leaving and putting their skills to good use,whether they can stick with it or not....well time will tell.

[hatter]

This is right out of the Readme for Permutation:

Clear Walls : F1
Semi Transparent Walls : F2
ESP : F3
Blue Sky : F4
No Fog : F5
Enity Wireframe : F6
Green Transparent Walls : F7
Panic Key (all cheats off) : F11


AOD_MR_SCARY, note the panic key that disables them.

Defiant had a good point about the financial factor in this. Some of you admins are paying good money to make this service possible. It would be nice if someone were maintaining this game (knock knock EA?). I hope that the new patch does do more than we expect.

[hemmy]

You guys need to deal with the fact ppl will cheat. Im assuming(i dont really know) but some cpu programer and cheat maker(very good one) could create cheats in their mohaa.exe in their ea games\mohaa file so unless something is made to actually open each file in any mohaa file in cluding main, screenshots, unamedsoldier ect... and read the exact contents examine and see what they contain, cheating will be abraod. One other idea I know there is a code security or clan code or both that supposedly take a ss of each player and is sent to......... somewhere i dont know :D but i think the client has to send u the ss but if u designate an email or such for each client ss to be sent as it is taken. Im sayin a screenshot of what that player is seeing on their monitor, not dumpuser, or anyother weird stuff they got to do a ss of what they see. If this made no sense to u well, made none to me too. reply with ur comments of my long boring speech that i keep dragging on

[CobraEF]

And don't use this thread to advertise for ServerWatch. It's crap ok. :)

Well at least we are doing somthing for the mohaa comunity.
it not everyone has the head to make ServerWatc work.
that we cant do nothing about.

The ServerWatch program are on moore than 100.000 lines of codes.
And yes it takes some time to get the bugs out of a program on that size.

It might look small when you download it.
but i can tell you it is not.

And instead of runing around and complayn.
Put that energi into helping out with finding new stuff that can help us stop the damn cheaters.

And it is your lost not liking the SW.
Becase we are now puting togheter the Anticheat client.

And that will allso force screenshots from the players.
And send it to the Server by it self.
So that is up to you if you dont want to use what we have been using a long time to make.

But just don`t run around with that naste mouth of your`s
That can make people angry,
And they stop building programs to help the comunity.
________
KH500 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Kawasaki_KH500)

[Green_Falcon]

NOOOOO keep on working on it

[CobraEF]

NOOOOO keep on working on it
No we wont stop.
Now we are working on the coolest featrues of SW.
And it will be realised. ;)
So no worry.

I just told him.
that mabe some one get tired of complaying and my stop building

And i dont wont anyone to stop building.
As we learn of eatchother

Like we have learned a lots of the other people that builds.
And they will learn new stuff from us when we realise the anticheat.
As we have taken stuff from other and rebuild a bit.

Like when we relase this client.
i will bet most people are wondering how we can send messages true the
Mohaa game that the anticheat pics up.
So it get the ip it is sepose to connect up to wiht out the players need to put in the ip them self.
Becase somethimes the server and the mohaa server are in diffrent IP s.
And still it will get that ip from the mohaa game and put it in it self.

So we need everyone making tools.
To learn of eathother and find new things to use in the fight against the cheaters.
________
marijuana test (http://drugtestingkit.org)

[hatter]

Look, if you think that bringing concerns (complaints) about a tool to light will get people to stop working on it, then you are as dumb as your english leads us to believe.

I felt that is was necessary to point out the fact that the current anti-cheat software does NOT do what it claims to do. This fact was stated with the hopes that the developers on this board would "look a little deeper" when it comes to anti-cheat portions of their tools.

The best analogy I can give for this, is security on a server. You can setup all the passwords and security you want, but until you get yourself a password cracker (or other hacking tools) and try it out on your box, you won't know it's secure.

I would like to suggest a thread that takes a hard look at the current cheats available on the market and brings them to light. I can assure you that half the people reading this board don't even know what cheats are available.

If this site is going to consider itself an authority on MOH Server Anti-Cheat Tools, then it might want to create a list of all the cheats out there and then the developers can step up to the plate and list which cheats their app protects against and how they protect against them.

For all of you that answered "Yes, and it caught them all" to the poll:

You have no idea what cheaters can get away with on your server, and you are naive to think that any anti-cheat program can stop them.

[CobraEF]

Damn you are a smart man.

it actuale hits me that you think that every person in here are from English speaking contry.
But don`t think so smart man.
I can make people understand me on like 4 differnet language.

So i do not care if you think i spell bad.

And so again.
I do understand that you dont know match about the game mohaa.
Becase when it is hard to make a anticheat.
It is allso hard to build cheats.

So yeah i think it is possibel to stop most of the cheats for mohaa.

Becase they cant make a cheat to implant in a good way for this game.
So you will not see cheats to this game as you see them build cheats for other games.
Like can you show me one cheat that works out side the mohaa game.....
With out any needs of a pk.3 file or anything inside the game.
Well you can say YEAH i do.
And yes it is the open GL file.
And that is it.
All the rest are inn ned of a pk.3 file or some changes inside the mohaa game.
And then it is allso possibel to stop them.

If they are stopped from changing files inside the mohaa game.
And the open gl file is checked.
Well it will get hard for them to cheat.
And screenshots sendt to the server at the same time they are taken.
And the new ban we are putting in.
Well cheat 1 time and you are out of the game.
And forget to come into that server again.

But i gues you allso know this from before.
Since you are so smart and can spell english perfect.


And your consern........
If they make it so bad.
Why dont you make a better one....?

And what is the need of telling what they can be taken fore using.
So people can come in here to see what kind of cheats they still can use ?
And if you use your head.
i gues you know that a serverside mode anticheat.
cant take to mutch.
but it do have a good thing by scaring of a hole lot of people from using cheats in the servers.
Becase it is a damn lot of people that dont know mutch about what the anticheats can take.
And then a lot of them will not use it on servers running anticheat.
So i do think they are doing a good job with building the mod anticheats.

You think you are smart man.
But this must be one of the most stupid votes i have seen:

Have you ever used cheats in order to TEST Delator?
Yes, and it caught all of them.
Yes, and it never found any of them.
Yes, and it did catch a few of them.
Yes, but it only caught the skins.
No, I read that it works and that's good enough for me.

What about some other options ?
lol you have made this stupid just by the vote options in here.

________
K1 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/BMW_K1)

[SharpTOM]

Some people are paranoid or what? Yes stop making .pk3 files editable or adding .pk3 files via sv_pure. But in all seriousness Im not going to be sending someone a screen shot from my game (I run the server after all) nor will I want the server to be forcing me to take a screen shot every "X" minutes.

I really appreciate what members of the community are doing, hopefuly getting the game to run server side mods only and the standard patched game will one day be a reality.

Dont give up the fight, but dont take things too far,

Regards

****Edit****

I caught all the cheats I tried but not all the cheats that are out there as I dont know them all!

[AODMRSCARY]

Well i have stopped using delator........And i have been using CI and MAM.....It doesnt detect the nasty chameleon skins.......But i just took my follow admins and took them through training on how to see and catch a hacker.......It might take a few rounds to spot them........But they always will stand out somewhere.....And doing this with my guys they know what to look for......And can spot them........But we always dont have a admin on to watch and see...........But it works good and it will be your best defence against them......And i will always encourge people to make updates and new programs.....But i want to see a client side and server side program......thats works good and u can update all the time......I am willing to go that far.......Cause we have alot of regulars that come to the server and i asked them if there was one out .........would they Download it to play in a ANTI-Cheat server ...........And most of all of them said yes they would......So i know it sucks.......But thats the way to go......But make it so a person that comes on without it........Kicks them to the webpage to Download the program.........And if a ANTI-Cheater wants to play in a ANTI_Cheat server they will do it...........And if a hacker DL s the program and comes in.......And the program catches what he is using.......Displays it on the server and sends the info to a website.........Yea i know that might be impossible to make but thats what needs to be made......Something along that.....But it needs to be all the programmers that make these Scanners to make it.......So everybody runs the same program in every server.....Shit sell it ..........People will buy it..........I know i would as long if it was nt too expensive.......Just to have the sercurity in the server............Just some ideas....

AOD_MR_SCARY

[Sondis]

I have found when running delator on a barrysworld server....if someone is using retribution....they do not have a skin name....its blank. Maybe its just how that server works but that is one way I know they are cheating. the fact that I cant get delator to run when I host because of a runtime 5 error....is beside the point. I dont have access to the BW server now so cant test anymore.