Feedback wanted.

[rudedog]

A friend and I where discussing the latest "death of the PC" and how the PC industry is blaming piracy for the demise of gaming on our beloved platform. Some publishers like IW (402) state PC piracy is what is hurting the PC platform. Then Valve states it's not as bad for them and their latest offerings. Even EA (Blackhat) stated that the piracy numbers took them by surprise.

I got to thinking and would like to hear your side of it. You pay the server bills what do you think and how could you help?- Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game?
- Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?
- As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)
There is also a heated debate on the COD Linux mailing list on how and why a GUID is created. Some people believe it's created based on your install and your IP address, however that is not what PB states. I would agree with how PB states it's based on your CD key and install.

Some say they have connected two legit PCs from the same IP to their server and got the same GUID, even with two legit CD keys. How can this be if PB is creating the GUID based on the CD key and not IP address.

I would love to open this up to everyone, admin and clients. We really need to start doing something to help our platform survive. If game companies keep pushing out games that only hurt the legitimate customer we will both (customers and publishers/developers) loose in the long run.

So confess, what would you do if the publishers would give you tools to fight piracy, would it help online cheating as well?

[ButchCassidy]

Well I believe that Piracy is just a part of the problem the other half is the publishers/developers themselves.

I believe the truth is that many parts of the industry do not want the PC because it is far more profitable to build a game for a standard machine i.e. Console

Not having to supply an anti-cheat is a huge saving in itself as consoles don't need one.
The margins on console sales are far far greater than PC and as I stated the developer really only has to build for one spec, especially if he's building for just one console unlike the PC where there are different operating systems, chips, grfx cards and a host of other software issues caused by anti-virus and firewall software etc etc.
All of which costs money to eliminate those issues and in addition the PC user does expect very good support from a developer, be it fixes or additional patch content which they do not expect to be charged for.

As we have seen most companies can charge more easily for downloadable (is that a word..lol) content from console gamers and kids are more willing to pay the price if it's a "must have" and all their friends have the add-on.

To play an Xbox360 online Microsoft charge again for a "live" account so that's more money even though you already pay an ISP for your connection!

PC Piracy is a problem particularly with a game that offers no multiplayer.
With multiplayer it can be less of an issue as cd key authentication can rule out many pirated versions.
But many many console games are pirated as well and imported over from southeast Asia and alike so it's not by any means unique to the PC.
I would think that the piracy from the cash cow known as Console gaming would worry publishers/developers far more as the profits are huge for a big selling game.

All in all I still feel this issue is being whipped up by spin doctors from within the industry to justify less development of PC games.
To be honest most of the industry wants to make money and lots of it which is fair enough so standardising the format would just make profits go through the roof.

If they actually achieved this does anybody really feel that the support and overall quality of most games would see the benefit or would the profits simply disappear into the bottom less pit known as shareholders dividends?

[rudedog]

but is there really a standard when you say console?

You the following consoles:
Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, DS, PSP

Each of these "platforms" are loosely related but need to be developed independently from each other. I bet dev/publishers don't really know how much piracy is effecting the xbox 360.

Hell I've owned a modded xbox for about 6 years, it makes a great media center box when I feel like dusting it off. If I really wanted to I could play pirated copies of any of the latest games released on the xbox if I wanted too.

Valve stated that their numbers for orange box (PC) outsold the console by double digits. That has to say something to the quality of the game and the continued support valve shows for their games.

If you as a server admin could ban or kick a client known for using a pirated copy of the game would you?

[rudedog]

Hmm Butch you just made me think about something.

Valve is a privately held company, I wonder if that has anything to do with their success?

[Scrapie]

at this moment i dont have time to write but i leave some points of view:


pc game ind will never end, as pc market need it to survive and sell all hardware stuff

at this moment is unreal pay 60$, our like here in portugal 60€ about 90$, per one game! steam showed to world a new way...

cheating is directly connected to piracy, as 70% of cheaters will never take a risk of loose 60$. steam system helps to decrease cheating as if you got banned you loose all your games...

so... problem is under the system of selling/supporting pc games, and not on piracy!

sorry my english :X

[HarryRag]

The major part that even the normal buyers of games are downloading a game atm, is fully the fault of the developers them self.
we've seen way to much games coming out in a alfa or beta status and is called a finished game.
lots of gamers want to now a days that a game is finished before they buy, and if they really think the game is OK, then the buying will start.

the ones only playing on pirated copy's of the game, that are indeed the cheaters, some try it on a legit game and start whining after that "i didn't do anything" etc etc.

so the main reason the developers are getting a hard time by PC-Gamers is cause of that they made to much bad material.

if they would release good finished games, the majority of the gamers would start buying or even pre-ordering their games again, to get that blind trust back at the PC-Gamers the dev's really need to do some more then the crappy shit the last years.

take the cod series, with the first series for pc there where losts of problems, even strikes with shutting or closing a server to make a point as community.
IW/AC is now releasing lots of patches and they seem to listen more then they did before.
the real result of that, that they will start seeing or feeling in buks as soon as a add-on or new release is coming to the PC-Gamers, they did get some of the trust back that they ruined with cod2.

the same happend to the BF serie, bf2 adding new content and not fixing the game in a released patch, they should have fixed the bugs first, and then add extra content to make the gamer happy, cause gamer wants a properly working game and not only bugs added to it.
that way EA lost a huge part of their costumers, it didn't have to do anything with cheating or piracy, just lame developing and creating a frustrated pc_gamer.

there are enough legit gamers around, but a crappy port, that you don't want to pay for, make a good game and they will get my money for sure.

the solution to the problem has to come from 2 sides, but if the dev's deliver crap, the gamer wont buy, so make a good game, finish it off properly and the cash will start flowing big time again.

if i would have the tools/ability to deny acces to our servers for illigal copy's of the games, i would, cause that would mean less cheaters on our servers.
less cheater around makes the community feel better, and a better feeling about games makes people spend money on new releases of that developer, more spending gamers means larger communities etc etc etc.
also finishing the games properly will mean less moaning on the different board/fora, and that will also help getting a nicer community, cause not all needs to be bashed on, cause if it works you will have less complaining.
better moods and........ whoohee the flower power loving feeling will come back in the air for PC_Gaming, instead of needing to bash at developers to get all those hard needed fixes for a game.

it's al just a imaginable circle, that starts with proper made and delivered games:undecided

for now they might think that console gamers are nice and sweet, but as soon as more and more internet acces will come available for them, and keyboard and stuff will be added, you can count on it that the console gamers will make a lot of noise to when they spend their money on a broken piece of dirt.

that's how i see it

wasn't my idea to make a long story about this, but ........ if you get thinking about it........ i come to these points.

McRag

[Neil]

I dont think there is a death of the PC just a death of interest from certain publishers to make games for PC.

I think that IW got it right with CoD4, although I was pretty disappointed that the ranking system was far too easy :( but I think thats the oly thing :). If you put the time and effort along with community input you'll have a smash hit and itll still be one of the top selling games even with pirate copies floating about. Piracy will always be there no matter what you use console, pc, dvds etc the same with people cheating, it just requires a greater effort to try and implement new ways to combat it and not giving up. I would have thought that console games would be more pirated due to their price? I bought Frontlines Fuel of War yesterday and noticed it cost more on console than PC.

I just cant see how PC gaming is dying a death when WOW has been like the biggest selling game for the past god knows only when. The same with CoD4. It was reported that there was tons of cracked copies but it was still in the top 5 of best selling games last year and it only came out at the end of 2007. That pretty good going if you ask me although I dont condone piracy. If you cant afford it get a job I say :salute:

I think more time/effort into developing the game, having that enthusiasm for it to be success on all platforms and community input is the key to a successful game. Theres been that many games that have now been developed that it shouldnt be the case anymore where the developers decide what type of games there should be and what it should have in it but what the consumer would like to see. I think everyone knows what kind of game they would like to play. Its not like the days of PAC-Man or whatever when computer games first started to appear.

Cheating will come to online gaming in console too if it isnt there already in some small form its envitable.

[J.S.J]

I host multiple game servers, I do get frequently asked if the server is cracked and if I can crack it.
I always reply, IF you like the game so much, support the developers!

What I think pc game developers should almost have a system like steam or use steam like, you can’t have the account online on two different pc's and have online login for playing online so two id's can't be on same time.

And like HarryRag says, that crappy made games do not sell, but still just look at COD4, very good multiplayer game and still so much cracked illegal servers/games because they don’t care about developers need money for making a another big title.

Should be easier to track down illegal games and ban them in my opinion.

[OldDog]

First, to answer your questions:
- Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game? Yes, absolutely. I don't think a player is serious about the game if they've stolen it, and I don't want dickheads on my server.
- Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?Not sure. I have a gut feel, though, that pirates are also either cheaters, or headed that way.
- As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)I cannot, don't know how.

Comments: The reason, in my opinion, for the "console" emphasis by game devs is that it's vastly more lucrative. PC gamers are, for the most part, a different breed. We're *****ly and demanding, and usually older. Console gamers, in my experience, are younger and more impressionable...as are their parents. Dad or Mom, for birthdays, Christmas, what-have-you, are more likely to grab multiple games, regardless of their cost. (unless Mom or Dad are PC gamers...:D). Clearly, I'm generalizing here, and I apologize to console gamers, but my impression is that they ARE younger. This is all about marketing...I saw 402's interview, and didn't (and don't) completely buy the pirating rationale...the marketing people say that consoles are where the money is, and they're right.

I've always liked the Steam model for game distribution. Some do it right (like Steam), and some screw it up (like EA), but, the model is a good one, IMHO. I can't say that it would completely preclude piracy, but it certainly appears to be more difficult.

- OD over and out :salute:

[HellBilly]

-Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game?
- Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?
- As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)

1= yes
2= yes
3= not a admin. anymore but no

one thought keeps nagging me and J.S.J has already said it .. should be easy to track them down and ban them

If the dev.s know its a cracked Cdkey .. how does it make it past the master server that checks CDkeys thats what it is there for ... if it is broke fix it

what id like to see happen is punkbuster and Dev.s start hardware banning these ppl.


if they are playing on a cracked server with no punkbuster then they might aswell be playing dominos or pong
cause they are not effecting the community and probably would not pay for the game if they had to they would just retreat back to moh:aa or some other out of date game


Valve stated that their numbers for orange box (PC) outsold the console by double digits. That has to say something to the quality of the game and the continued support valve shows for their games.

now Valve is top notch for support but i think that stat. and the one "if you make a good game for the PC it will sell "
i think that just shows how few good games are out there for the PC gamer to choose from

sure if its a good game im gonna buy it ... cause from where i stand there is nothing eles to play ....

[Wizz]

1) Look at how Valve does business. All of their games auto patches. All players and server admin are playing off the exact same sheet of music. All the other Dev's needs to do this.

2) If you run a cracked/hacked server bins, dll's or what ever then your server will be delisted/black listed

3) Game Dev's and publishers needs to get with Evenbalance or whoever and if you cheat no matter the cheat its a instant hardware ban. There ain't no other chances or what ever, appeals tho will be in place but any cheating you are gone forever.

4) When you buy the game FORCE it to be reg'd. Thats right no ands ifs or buts, registering the game is manditory. Once you register, then your CD key, game guid, submask of your IP and all the goodies are now tied to the machine you are playing on. Example, Valve does this for their games and to this day I have had zero trubs with someone else stealing my goods to play the game. I have been playing Valve games for years now and to this day I haven't had one time that I couldn't play because someone else stole my keys.

Its time to be proactive and the game Dev's and publishers needs to wake up and start enforcing some things here.

Wizz

[richman61]

- Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game?


-Is having two pc's running with one cd key considered pirated? As in the case of my immediate family members using the same cd key. In this case I really don't think it is, why should a house hold need to have multiple copies of a game. If this is considered pirating, then I can not buy multiple copies at $50-60 a copy and I would not want to ban.


- Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?

no - cheating exists no matter what.


- As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)

no - Directly, at least not that I'm aware of.
yes- With the use of third party software as in PB, PPBans, and PunksBusted.

[Mike Nomad]

1) Look at how Valve does business. All of their games auto patches. All players and server admin are playing off the exact same sheet of music. All the other Dev's needs to do this.

2) If you run a cracked/hacked server bins, dll's or what ever then your server will be delisted/black listed

3) Game Dev's and publishers needs to get with Evenbalance or whoever and if you cheat no matter the cheat its a instant hardware ban. There ain't no other chances or what ever, appeals tho will be in place but any cheating you are gone forever.

4) When you buy the game FORCE it to be reg'd. Thats right no ands ifs or buts, registering the game is manditory. Once you register, then your CD key, game guid, submask of your IP and all the goodies are now tied to the machine you are playing on. Example, Valve does this for their games and to this day I have had zero trubs with someone else stealing my goods to play the game. I have been playing Valve games for years now and to this day I haven't had one time that I couldn't play because someone else stole my keys.

Its time to be proactive and the game Dev's and publishers needs to wake up and start enforcing some things here.

Wizz


Wizz, you said it all and said it just the right way. I agree.

[GaSplat]

I defintely would ban for piracy. Wonder if you could link a GUID to the video card? Don't know if they have a hardware ID or not. But it would be a hell of a discouragement. No such thing as reinstall for a fresh life.:hand:

[rudedog]

Great feedback guys, please keep it coming / keep this conversation alive. I think it's good to let developers know at least the admins of their games are on their side and would love to help block certain pirated copies of the game as well as cheaters.

You never know who is reading this stuff.... :hand:

[Kioti]

I would Ban for Piracy. I don't like cheats. I do it honestly, so should everyone else.

The Valve platform is a good model to follow.

[HellBilly]

Wizz ... well said
Rude .. up the good work

maybe the light at the end is not a train

[InfinityDevils]

Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game?

Absolutely, as it stands now every game on my machine is a legit copy, meaning I spent MY money to purchase it. Now if I have to spend money on the game, and on servers to run the game you can believe I would ban them without any guilt lol. In my opinion, servers that are allowing pirated keys and games are asking for nothing but problems. If a person has access to free keys then what is there to stop them from cheating, absolutely nothing and god do I hate cheaters/exploiters. I don't hesitate to ban cheaters/exploiters and a pirated key is definately exploiting and cheating both.

Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?

Absolutely, I have no doubt if a person has unlimited access to keys/game then what is to stop them from cheating, nothing, what do they have to lose, again nothing :(

As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)

Nope, if someone knows how I would sure like to know :)

Ok with that said, its seems to me that todays developers are for the most part starting out on the correct path, but somewhere along the road in development things go astray, problems develop, and in my opinion bad decisions are made a majority of the time because of money and getting a return on the companys investment asap. In the past it was the gamers who got shafted most of the time and we were forced to get smarter because developers were pushing out products that are unfinished and loaded with errors that should not be in a beta release much less a retail public release.

We as customers/gamers have allowed this to happen by purchasing thru pre-orders and allowing the companies to water at the mouth with our money, so much so that corners are cut to release the product rather than delay, hoping the consumer will pay now and wait for it to become playable. If you compare anything that costs 40, 50 or even 60 dollars, you as the consumer have the right to return it usually minus handeling costs if the product does not meet your satisfaction. Not so with games, you buy it, you own it!

So now the developers are now seeing a much smarter gaming community (lack of pre-orders) because it's simply saying we are not gonna buy that rushed crap any more, give us a completed game not simply promises it will be. Oh, and because of all the crap you developers have shoveled us in the past, give us a demo so we can see it before we buy it! Oh and sorry for the lack of trust but you lost that a game or two ago...

I also don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to see that a game like CoD4 thats has sold in excess of 7 million copies happened because of luck, it happened because all steps in creating a mega game like this were well thought out at the start by everyone involved in the project (All platforms) and the course was followed to completion.

Edited: I believe the Steam Platform is the way of the future as well as today. For some reason I don't even think about cheaters when playing a game on/through steam.

[OldDog]

Wizz...good summary.

-Is having two pc's running with one cd key considered pirated? As in the case of my immediate family members using the same cd key. In this case I really don't think it is, why should a house hold need to have multiple copies of a game. If this is considered pirating, then I can not buy multiple copies at $50-60 a copy and I would not want to ban.

Yes, richman, 2 pcs running with one cd key IS piracy. An option for devs that I think is appropriate in this case is to sell multiple copies to the same party at a reduced price per copy, or "site license". Business software devs do this...it's not hard, and will offset the "in-house" piracy. I'm in the same boat...I have a son (in-house...anybody want him?) who is also a gamer. I do not share my CD keys with him (he said from his pulpit...:)). Seriously, though, I don't...he buys his own games.

So, game devs, if you're reading this...a "site license" concept is appropriate, and not difficult to do. Both for players AND server admins, a lot of whom have multiple servers of the same game running.

[Herr Klugscheisser]

Valve succeeds because they produce quality products and supports the title long after release. I feel they have a very good business model.

Nothing is worse than someone stealing your CD-key. This happened to me with CoD2. Forget trying to get a new one from Activision. Valve seems to have a good system with Steam. Though I still prefer to buy a boxed copy from a store, Steam (or something like it) is very good for PC gamers.

All pirates/cheaters should be perm. banned.

[Kyobanim]

- Would you as a server admin ban clients if you knew for sure they where using a pirated key/game?
Most definately. I would also post any information I gathered to a centralized website to be disseminated to other admins

- Do you feel that piracy has any direct result on cheating in the online FPS gaming world?
Maybe a little. I think that the majority of the piracy that occurs is being done by people that don't have the money to purchase the games. The rest is those individuals that need new keys because they are cheating. I think it's a small percentage of the piracy, at least I hope so.

- As an admin can you tell if a client is using a pirated copy of the game (via GUID)
I wouldn't know what to look for.

[Neil]

Just read this article on IGN's website about UT3. Apparently UT3 hasnt been a huge success in America but it has however sold a million units and has been quite successfull in the international market.

Read (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/859/859016p1.html)