Why did the MP feedback go wrong and can we expect better in future?

[ButchCassidy]

These are posts I made on another site on the 8th of August and 5th Sept.
I have posted them here because I feel that the whole support issue is being brushed aside on other sites.
Many have said "So what its just a game" but like any part of the leisure industry someone, somewhere has to pay and usually its the consumer so when its comes to spending money especially on an unfinished product things take on a very different turn and become a much more serious issue than just paying for a game.
The potential costs incurred by Admins, Clans and gaming groups could be very much more than simply buying the game.
Hence good developer support becomes a bigger issue to these groups because of this increased expenditure.

It is sad to say that when I read many of the replies to the original posts they were less than realistic and the same old "They are working on it and it will be ready" type comments came flooding in.
These same people are now beginning to question the whole quality of the Airborne release.
EA are now walking a very thin tightrope with this title and success or failure will almost solely depend on the MP patch.
How many times does it need to be said that gamers in the 21st century are buying games for there MP content.
Single player may last a week but the MP can be around for years.
I would have thought that the success of BF2 would have made this very apparent to EA and their dev teams.
Releasing a title with no quality MP included only damages the title and loses the company sales.
The game has huge potential but at the moment that is all it has...potential.
EA will need to dig deep to get this title out from under the cloud of disappointment now being expressed by many gamers who were unaware that the game was unfinished.
With all this said I still truly hope that EA get Airborne working the way all of us want it too because as I have stated it does have huge potential.

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8th August 07
Why did the MP feedback go wrong and can we expect better in future?

The MP summit was it would now seem a very wise move as it highlighted so many missing features from the version of Airborne shown that were requested by the MOH community.

There is no denying that ALL of these features had been asked for well in advance and by that I mean well over a year ago.

1) So one has to ask why were they missing as new technology or not they were known about a very long time ago?

2) Why did it take an MP summit to highlight those missing features?
If EA were in fact listening to the community then how on earth did so many basic things get left out.

Whilst I applaud the steps that appear to be being taken now to resolve the issues by the Airborne team one cannot help but feel that the much vaunted "were listening" did in fact fall on deaf ears.

It seems only at the MP summit with literally a few weeks to go that EA were suddenly made very aware of all the stuff they promised to include that in fact was nowhere in sight.
Did no one check, did no one even think about the consequences of releasing the games MP in such a shoddy condition?

It would seem to me that no one did and further more that the intended community inclusions were not even looked into?

I find it all a little disheartening that so much feedback was ignored despite constant assurances that much of what was specifically asked for was already on the list for inclusion.

The feeling that the game has been rushed and is in fact a console port is overwhelming because of these factors especially when you combine the fact the PC's MP is almost identical to the Xbox360's MP content.
Are the maps bigger for PC to allow for bigger numbers I doubt it.
No dedicated server? Well the Xbox doesn't need one.

Such a shame that we are now facing a game that will need either a release day patch or some very serious updates in the short term.
It should and could have been so different.

But how and why did this whole community feedback process go wrong and how can it be fixed so that it will not happen again as Airborne will need a lot of help to get over this bump in the road.
The knock on effects of the last 24 hours will spread like wild fire through a community who were told and and expected something more than what is being offered so steps to assure them will need to be taken.

I.E. Publicly release full info on what people can now expect to see in the final release of the game.
The tool is there via the MOHA website.

People are going to invest a lot into this game and more than just buying it.
Servers cost money and so do websites not to mention time.
They won't do it if the support is not there or they feel they are being ignored.

This is not a rant or complaint but more of a request that we draw a line under the mistakes of the past and see much more pro-active and positive feedback from EA with regards to content that has been requested by the community.
If it can't be done say so but if can then give feedback on progress.

I do hope that we will see some very strong support for this title as by the sounds of it the game itself was fantastic to play.

If the game needs to be delayed to get things right then so be it.
I would rather wait than see it fail at the first hurdle.

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5th September 07

To be honest the decision not to include the dedi server was always gonna be a killer.
I applaud the decision to put it back in an effort to get it right but Id rather have seen the title released with everything working from day one.
It has to be said that EA have totally mishandled the title.

The negatives generated by the MP summit have in my opinion been borne out and whilst many will say "So what it's just a delay"...Many many Clans will not make the switch because there's no dedi available and many will now view the game with suspicion because EA did not include much of the requested community feedback until the MP summit brought it to the attention of everyone including the Dev team.

As an SP game it's fine but as stated many times by many people..Today's gamer buys a game to play online so the lack of a Quality MP on release will damage the title in many peoples eyes and they will simply not buy it and may never buy it.

I personally think that EA should take a long hard look at the way this title was handled overall as without a shadow of a doubt I don't think they or anyone else wanted to have the title put under a cloud caused by some very strange development decisions.

[Mike Nomad]

If I am not mistaken, Rudedog covered all of the above and more in his Summit Review.

- Read Rudedog's Medal of Honor Airborne Review here (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12959) - Dated 8/1/2007


All of the rhetoric is so redundant at this point in time. Yet its oh, so necessary.


All I'll say is;

Blackhat picked the right color hat! :hand:
EA has certainly lived up to its reputation of a lousy attitude and regard toward its consumers.EA has made Activision and IW look like "perfectionists". I've never seen such a screwed up release.

Everything about this release, from a half-assed program, to the botched release/ship/availability dates and now, the confusion over the patches and just what they'll contain.

To make matters worse, the half-wit "know-it-alls" * like Whiskey * at various sites, have done nothing but ADD to the confusion with their BS double-talk and foolish cheerleading for EA.

You would think these useless zealots would learn from the mistakes of others. They don't and the users become misled and confused.

Like MOH:Pacific Insult, MOH: Stillborn is a full blown disaster..

Rudedog, you are/were right, its best to wait 'till we see exactly what the PROMISED Patches and updates are all about before we part with our hard earned money.

Blackhat, Gilmore and EA have done the PC Community WRONG!

[rudedog]

While I've been told personally that my review made me look like a cry baby, and others have told me that I've taken this too personally, I can only say that I want this franchise to be a huge success.

I removed most of this post, as I will be preparing one shortly when I have more time and when I feel less frustrated.

Thanks Butch and Mike for your comments.

[Busterking]

[SIZE=2]To make matters worse, the half-wit "know-it-alls" * like Whiskey * at various sites, have done nothing but ADD to the confusion with their BS double-talk and foolish cheerleading for EA.




I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

[InfinityDevils]

While I've been told personally that my review made me look like a cry baby, and others have told me that I've taken this too personally, I can only say that I want this franchise to be a huge success.

I removed most of this post, as I will be preparing one shortly when I have more time and when I feel less frustrated.

Thanks Butch and Mike for your comments.

A Crybaby ? Did the person that expressed that to you work for EA ? Because thats NOT what I read at all. What I did read in you're review was someone being totally honest about what they saw and experienced while at the summit, I do believe thats what the article was supposed to be about wasn't it ? I guess they haven't wasted money on a game or for that matter 40 members money on a game as alot of us did with Pacific Assault. It was a complete waste of money for all of us MoH gamers and all of my team. This time around EA we got smart, only two of the 40 member team bought the game so we are only out $100 instead of $2000. I just don't get it, do the developers think PC gamers want to play games like console gamers do. If I want to play a console game then I buy a console to play it and the game accordingly to that console. But if I want to play a game on a PC well thats a whole different expectation as I personally see it. I want to play against 12 or more per team not half of that total, and that should be a reasonable request for my $50 to buy it.

I am sorry but when you have someone come into you're fourm representing any gaming company and ask members to post what things they WANT included in the game and people post the things revelant to that request and then when the game is due for release they tell you well we couldn't do all of it, but when you look at it personel and up close you actually see very little of the requests actually put into the game. Damn right people are going to get upset and NOT buy the game and I hope more people refrain from buying it until it is patched and READY for RETAIL, not this SP experience they are toting right now out of box with NO DEDICATED server support. In this day and age its unbelievable a company like EA would do this especially with their track record with this franchise and their release of Pacific Assault. UNBELIEVABLE !!!!

I just don't understand how we allow gaming companies to dictate to us consumers that we should buy a incomplete game on a hope that they will really and truly patch it to make it complete. And we let companies like EA do that to us on a regular basis, sometimes you just need to stand you're ground and tell them NOPE we ain't buying till it's COMPLETE !!!!

NOTE: Rude, this is now the 5th time I read you're summit recap and I will be damned if I come away from it as you being a cry-baby, not even close, but what I did read was concern and caution and you expressed it very well and you were upfront about it. KEEP IT UP !!!


But how and why did this whole community feedback process go wrong and how can it be fixed so that it will not happen again as Airborne will need a lot of help to get over this bump in the road.


Butch it seems pretty obvious that one of two things happened. The first being that it was just a bunch of bullshit to garner our interest and make it seem like they really cared and wanted to do us gamers right or two they never received it to begin with from Blackhat. Because if the developers know anything about todays gamers they should know we are NOT CONSOLE GAMERS and we are NOT going to change either !

[=IcM=JudgeMental]

Just finished building server for our clan. Based on a Q6600 G0 stepping CPU. Added 4 Gb of memory to make sure that it would fizz along nicely. Only delay for me was the fact that I had to wait until the 5th-6th of September before I could install Airborne and then take it to the server house.
He we are, its built, it runs and now its gonna be sat here now for.....how long exactly before I install it?.
I thought that with the server files being so big the sensible thing to do was wait till I could physically install it before taking the box in. Now it seems that our old xeon server will be there for the forseeable future.
You know who I'm MOST pissed off at?......ME! for falling for this same old shit (a la Pacific Assault , Sin ,COD2) again. I'm fed up with giving people second chances only to get dry humped.
My clan play 2 games, RO and MOHAA. MOHAA is dying on its feet if I'm honest, great gameplay but the kiddies and new players want to play games that are 'shinier'. I soooooo wanted this to be the dogs danglies, now it seems that thanks to a breathtaking disregard for what their punters want, its gonna be the cats arse!!!

[U-z-i Kidding]

Sod Medal of Honor Jim you're a Man of Honour.

I for one do not see you as a cry baby as I am sure many other users here do not. One thing that you do have that EA and the fanbois haven't at this present moment in time is respect.

We were all hoping through the feedback that BlackHatAA asked for that this would be the thoroughbred racehorse of the fps genre instead EA have released an ass/mule/donkey call it what you like, but as the game stands at this present moment its plagued.

You have always stated from day one, when this game was announced to be in development, your hopes that EA would really go all out on this title and you still stand by them words to this day. EA are the ones destroying this game by not implementing the requests made by the customers, the people they need to stay in the development game and pay their wages.

I certainly have respect Jim for your honesty and don't let the bastards bring you down. I'd prefer an honest review anyday over the brown nosed fanbois and any company spiel that release half arsed products and expect you to pay full price for them and then wait forever and day for the support if at all.

BlackHatAA found it hard to contain his excitement that this was going to blow everyones socks off and they were listening to us.

Well now its released you only have to read the EA boards to see what a complete utter nightmare this title is and that is just on the first day of release.

1. Not only the problems downloading from the EA Link and installing but what people are being charged

2. Also the corrupted dvds that have been sold that say the disk is empty and needs reformatting

3. Errors installing the game that shuts down prematurely before you have finished

4. Corrupted cab1 and cab4 files installing

5. Specs that were released prior too have now changed and many people that were running the demo have now found they can't play the full game

6. Still no confirmation as to what can be expected in a patch release for the multiplayer.


@EA
If you had any honour whatsoever and could accept the constructive criticism that Jim offered at the time (being the No1 server admin support site for the spectrum of the fps genre) then you would have asked him back to review the serverside, that you have now stated has been incorporated and the features you have now implemented for the admins. Not blacklist him because he stated he could not review the serverside because it just wasn't there, that blame lays on your shoulders.

You can send your copies of games out to the bought and paid for sites that live in your back pockets they can't be trusted as they don't have to pay for the game, unlike all of us. If you really want good, honest and decent reviews then try putting that practise into your product maybe then you would gain our trust and respect.

[Wolverine]

There are no surprises here people. We knew exactly (more or less) what we would be getting on release day. Not sure why anyone (unless they just came from under a rock) would act like they were blindsided by this.

We knew after the MP summit that EA did not intend (at least in the short term) to provide the core essentials we require in MP.

Were we mislead? Yes I think we were but I also think it would be prudent at this point to reserve final judgment for maybe a month. This will give them time to get their patch-patches together. Once the game is patched we will know what their intentions are for this title.

If we are after patching where we are now then we can break out the torches and pitchforks. Let's hope instead that we are pleasantly surprised.

P.S.
I don't think attacking people at other sites who might have a different perspective than ours will help further our cause. But maybe thats just me.

[The_Comfy_Chair]

But how and why did this whole community feedback process go wrong and how can it be fixed so that it will not happen again as Airborne will need a lot of help to get over this bump in the road.

How and Why: Forgive my literal examination of this one, but... I have been working in various levels of a Healthcare IT company for approx. 5 years now. I have a buddy (Don) whose sole job purpose is to fly around the world and "gather user requirements". He knows his customers and the product as well as the industry demands very well. He prioritizes those "demands" and relays them - along with feedback on existing product features etc. - to the development house.

The next step is a a group called the Project Control Team (PCT) who meet regularly to discuss the ongoing development, deadlines, bugs, features etc. and to decide "What's in" and what's out". This is where things go wrong. The PCT members don't necessarilly have the "hands-on" experience or customer knowledge that Don has. I imagine the same case exists at EA where BlackHat takes his info from the masses back to the PCT to make decisions on what's in and what's out. It's easy to blame Blackhat... but he has a mandate from the bosses to relay the appropriate info in the appropriate tone - Just like that "404-Info not found" mouthpiece for the COD2 community.

Having been a part of these PCT meetings (as the Software Testing Group Rep) and been party to some massively stupid decisions myself, I can see how the demand for hitting the release date can over-ride implementation of even the most important features. Our benchmark in the last 3 months boils down to: "IS THERE RISK OF DEATH?". If not, it's out. Not finished? Cut it. Buggy section? Cut it. New features (which would make our competitors bow down before us and beautiful women everywhere tear their clothes off and throw themselves at our feet) - not working? They're out.
Unless it addressing life/death issues NOTHING stops the release date.

The software industry dictates release it... and patch it. :salute:

What's gonna change this or stop it in the future? Nothing except a re-alignment of priorities within the company to recognize the value and importance of the multiplayer component. Meaning; value = priority = $.

So, personally I don't believe that they had no Dedicated Server in development; I believe they cut it along with everything else MP for PC they could - to hit the release date. The software build and test cycle is just too long to believe that they could code anything solid or adequate and then test/fix/test release it it just a few weeks.There are probably a million little feature they could have and should have put in, but everything gets sacrificed when there is a hard release date. I'm sure that among other reasons, they had to get this out before COD4 crushed them. I am also certain that the real test will be: What will the Dedicated Server Patch/release update bring to the table? And what is the ongoing support plan? IT should be pretty interesting to see how this all plays out, I'm hoping for the best, but after the COD2 debacle I'm not about to drink anyone's Kool-Aid. :p

[bullet-worm]

To answer this original post's question, the reason they are so far off is because they waited WAY too long to bring in ACTUAL server admins to test the game.

I took the response we saw from EA at the MP Summit as one of almost... SUPRISE... about the necessity of the Dedicated Server.

I don't think BlackHat was surprised at all, except maybe with just how passionately the group felt about the issue. Remember that a Dedicated Server was in the plans, just not at launch...

Had EA brought in seasoned Server Admins from the moment they got the MP up and running, sat DOWN with them and went through EXACTLY what the CUSTOMERS needed, then we probably would have come a LOT closer to the target at launch... The MP event was just WAY too late in the development to make the serious amount of changes needed.

See, the difference is these MP developers make maybe one game every two-three years with essentially no true server admin experience, while us server admins see several games over that same time period and have a TON of actual server admin experience. So, of those two, who should you go to to ask what the customer EXPECTS or what it takes to make a GOOD product?

Further, this is my THEORY on what happened to the MP server: I THINK it is yet another victim of the console "cross-development" cycle. The development probably went into getting a MP server up that worked across BOTH platforms with minimal changes. That explains why a Listen Server for a PC works frighteningly familiar to the way a typical XBoX server does.

This first MP patch is shaping up to be THE deciding factor for this game's PC MP future. I hope EA can pull a pristine white bunny out of that hat, but as almost every PC MP Summit preview said, this is still a 'wait and see' title for PC MP.

The MP Summit helped EA fix a few major problems before launch, and get a 'jump' on what major issues needed to be worked out for the first patch or two. I applaud the move to do that event.

But hopefully EA (and other major game developers) should have people like rudedog (major server admins) almost on as a consultant from the initial DESIGN of creating a MP Server Application. Not because rudedog knows HOW to program or make a game, but because rudedog knows the design features it would take to make the CUSTOMER happy.

That isn't to say EVERYTHING would make it in, but the final product would be lightyears better than what was released with Airborne.

worm

[bullet-worm]

The PCT members don't necessarilly have the "hands-on" experience or customer knowledge that Don has.

hehe, posted about the same response at the same time in different ways. It boils down to the people making decisions at EA not knowing from EXPERIENCE exactly what the customer EXPECTS.

They may have THOUGHT the Dedicated Server was sacrifice-able, but only because the powers that be did not understand how absolutely critical they are to the MP side of the game.

Then again, it could be that the MP side of the game itself was considered sacrifice-able... Hard to tell from this side of the closed door.

worm

[rudedog]

I would like to make it very clear, that the cry baby comment did not come from EA.

I have a lot of respect for Blackhat and right now he has a very tough job. Blackhat is responsible to bring our comments and feedback to the powers that be, blackhat can argue for our side, but he is not the decision maker.

[Mike Nomad]

I would like to make it very clear, that the cry baby comment did not come from EA.

I have a lot of respect for Blackhat and right now he has a very tough job. Blackhat is responsible to bring our comments and feedback to the powers that be, blackhat can argue for our side, but he is not the decision maker.

All very well and good.

I doubt that Blackhat would ever resort to immature name calling. In fact, its easy to deduce just who had such "mental agility" to do so.

Blackhat may be the nicest guy around but the nagging question remains; What became of all our suggestions and recommendations which we supplied with diligence when asked? Were *any* of them actually utilized? Why were most if not all ignored.

I refuse to make excuses for anyone. Not at EA and not Blackhat. At this point in time, Blackhat has to be very busy trying to salvage whatever credibility he has left with the USER Community. That's fine by me.... but because of the release fiasco, I am most definitely in full "SHOW ME" mode. You see, I went for all the good things we were told by Blackhat. Of course, we all know now what they meant.

What has to happen is EA must realize the needs of the online PC community and address those needs adequately. Not just minimally. From the lame online player username situation to the very essence of the dedicated Server functionality. Everything has been totally violated by some warped conception of how things should be. All these wrongs must be righted.

Yes, I hold Blackhat partly responsibile since he assured us we were being "heard." Unfortunately, he failed to tell us we were not being LISTENED to. I find it very difficult to "look past" Blackhat since he's the closest EA representative for us.

Blackhat and EA;

Hear me well; The PC single player side of Airborne is VERY impressive... If the update/fix brings the PC Multi-player Dedicated server into line with the SP this puppy will be a solid winner.

[johnnyx]

EA has made Activision and IW look like "perfectionists"

/shudder

[tskScreamer]

I agree bullit, a cross is definelty in play here, when you would think instead of a Playstation to PC, it would be PC to Playstation since most the dedication on online gaming is PC.
Honestly I think they did a great job in the Game itself, with having a lean run and the smooth play on the Unreal engine, the graphics are awesome, I was very surprised by the lack of lag while running the game on my computer with 9 people connected and playing, with that being said,
Yes it is messed up that they didnt think to include DEDICATED SERVER WTH? Yes I am happy they are fixing that but what did they think we all with our thousand dollar computers are going to go "O you know what ill buy a piece of crap console to play MOHA" Not Happening.... So EA listen up dont release a game that has been delayed SO long and not give the community what it wants, if anything you screwed yourself because people are going to hear that there are no dedicated servers and just not buy the game. No hard core PC gamer is going to buy or switch to your lame consoles to play this game especially when COD is coming out with a new game in a couple months. So Kudos to you for fixing it and coming out with a patch, but after all this waiting to be unprepared is just plain Lame....just sayin

[wcSki]

I know this will never happen.... but I would really like to know why they (BlackHat and EA) even came to the community and ask us what we want in a perfect PC MP server if they don't even listen to a 1/4 of what was told to them.

They put out a console game and just plain screwed the PC community. Another disappointment from EA.

With that said... if the patch delivers what "they say" it will the game could be a solid winner.... but we are counting on believing what the folks at EA are telling us yet again. :confused:

Ski

[The_Comfy_Chair]

I had this one sent to me recently by a friend at the old company I used to work at. It really captures the essence of the clash between "Traditional" business focussed minds and the "creative" groups of a Software Company and it was particularly relevant to what happened when the "Big Company" came in and took over our smaller software development house.

What I think is relevant for EA is that there is clearly a disconnect between their middle/upper management and the geeks on the ground doing the coding and design - and ultimately; the customers. So, my message is this; Don't blame the developers - blame the management. :salute:


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Software - How Software Companies Die
By Orson Scott Card

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The environment that nutures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. Programming is the Great Game. It consumes you, body and soul. When you're caught up in it, nothing else matters. When you emerge into daylight, you might well discover that you're a hundred pounds overweight, your underwear is older than the average first grader, and judging from the number of pizza boxes lying around, it must be spring already. But you don't care, because your program runs, and the code is fast and clever and tight. You won. You're aware that some people think you're a nerd. So what? They're not players. They've never jousted with Windows or gone hand to hand with DOS. To them C++ is a decent grade, almost a B - not a language. They barely exist. Like soldiers or artists, you don't care about the opinions of civilians. You're building something intricate and fine. They'll never understand it.

BEEKEEPING

Here's the secret that every successful software company is based on: You can domesticate programmers the way beekeepers tame bees. You can't exactly communicate with them, but you can get them to swarm in one place and when they're not looking, you can carry off the honey. You keep these bees from stinging by paying them money. More money than they know what to do with. But that's less than you might think. You see, all these programmers keep hearing their parents' voices in their heads saying "When are you going to join the real world?" All you have to pay them is enough money that they can answer (also in their heads) "Geez, Dad, I'm making more than you." On average, this is cheap. And you get them to stay in the hive by giving them other coders to swarm with. The only person whose praise matters is another programmer. Less-talented programmers will idolize them; evenly matched ones will challenge and goad one another; and if you want to get a good swarm, you make sure that you have at least one certified genius coder that they can all look up to, even if he glances at other people's code only long enough to sneer at it. He's a Player, thinks the junior programmer. He looked at my code. That is enough. If a software company provides such a hive, the coders will give up sleep, love, health, and clean laundry, while the company keeps the bulk of the money.

OUT OF CONTROL

Here's the problem that ends up killing company after company. All successful software companies had, as their dominant personality, a leader who nurtured programmers. But no company can keep such a leader forever. Either he cashes out, or he brings in management types who end up driving him out, or he changes and becomes a management type himself. One way or another, marketers get control. But...control of what? Instead of finding assembly lines of productive workers, they quickly discover that their product is produced by utterly unpredictable, uncooperative, disobedient, and worst of all, unattractive people who resist all attempts at management. Put them on a time clock, dress them in suits, and they become sullen and start sabotaging the product. Worst of all, you can sense that they are making fun of you with every word they say.

SMOKED OUT

The shock is greater for the coder, though. He suddenly finds that alien creatures control his life. Meetings, Schedules, Reports. And now someone demands that he PLAN all his programming and then stick to the plan, never improving, never tweaking, and never, never touching some other team's code. The lousy young programmer who once worshiped him is now his tyrannical boss, a position he got because he played golf with some sphincter in a suit. The hive has been ruined. The best coders leave. And the marketers, comfortable now because they're surrounded by power neckties and they have things under control, are baffled that each new iteration of their software loses market share as the code bloats and the bugs proliferate. Got to get some better packaging. Yeah, that's it.



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This essay was composed by Orson Scott Card. I found it floating around the Internet.

[LordMaximus]

The specs for the game prior to release specified Dedicated server etc. Correct?
I may be wrong.. but it looks like to me that EA with all this support talk through BH and cross talk about the game could be looking at a possible "Bait and Switch lawsuit" Just a thought.

Thats all part of getting people hyped up to buy a product by promising a bunch of stuff and then giving them something else.

EA needs a swift kick in the legal department ass if you ask me on this one.

[Rigger82]

There has been quite a bit of back and forth and for my .02 I'd like to say that many are operating on a belief that the issues would surely be addressed.

Much of what you're reading out there has been discussed in great detail among those who were involved with the MP event and I can assure you that the emails are still flying about MP, dedicated server, total players etc etc. What is unfortunate is that under the NDA some things just arent for public air.

Hats off to the community members who have been trying desperately to be the gaming public's advocate on this but everyone should remember that ultimately, the community members are consumers and EA is not beholden to any of them. In the end EA is going to release what it wants and what it feels it needs to and the consumer is going to dictate if they made the right choice and its future fate through its purchases.

It's hard to say whats going on inside of EA because none of us are privvy to the conversations but Id be hard pressed to believe that any company that wishes to make a profit would willingly disregard or toss a section of a game under the bus for no reason at all.

I think that taking pot shots at EA isnt going to do anything to make changes, but I think as a community the message that gets sent to EA is going to be in the bottom line. If the community is unhappy with the product and doesnt play it or doesnt support it, I think thats the only CLEAR message that will get sent.

Believe me, your community representatives are doing a hell of a job trying to offer comments, criticism, support and testing but it is ultimately up to EA to decide what they do with it all.

We shall see what happens with MP and I totally agree that this game will live or die based on how MP plays out and what happens so long as it happens soon. Im hoping that MP gets all the attention it deserves to make it all work out, Im a paratrooper and have told MY community of troopers that this game would be great so I sure dont want to dissapoint them.

[InfinityDevils]

There has been quite a bit of back and forth and for my .02 I'd like to say that many are operating on a belief that the issues would surely be addressed.

Much of what you're reading out there has been discussed in great detail among those who were involved with the MP event and I can assure you that the emails are still flying about MP, dedicated server, total players etc etc. What is unfortunate is that under the NDA some things just arent for public air.

Hats off to the community members who have been trying desperately to be the gaming public's advocate on this but everyone should remember that ultimately, the community members are consumers and EA is not beholden to any of them. In the end EA is going to release what it wants and what it feels it needs to and the consumer is going to dictate if they made the right choice and its future fate through its purchases.

It's hard to say whats going on inside of EA because none of us are privvy to the conversations but Id be hard pressed to believe that any company that wishes to make a profit would willingly disregard or toss a section of a game under the bus for no reason at all.

I think that taking pot shots at EA isnt going to do anything to make changes, but I think as a community the message that gets sent to EA is going to be in the bottom line. If the community is unhappy with the product and doesnt play it or doesnt support it, I think thats the only CLEAR message that will get sent.

Believe me, your community representatives are doing a hell of a job trying to offer comments, criticism, support and testing but it is ultimately up to EA to decide what they do with it all.

We shall see what happens with MP and I totally agree that this game will live or die based on how MP plays out and what happens so long as it happens soon. Im hoping that MP gets all the attention it deserves to make it all work out, Im a paratrooper and have told MY community of troopers that this game would be great so I sure dont want to dissapoint them.

I can understand where you are coming from Rigger but I just don't feel EA is doing it right and I will tell you why....

1) EA announces MoH:AB to the public, BlackHat shows up as EA's represenative to multiple gaming and admining fourms asking for INPUT from the community on what would be necessary from a player and admining point of view to create the best game to date. This can be taken two ways one being "WoW, EA finally realizes the mistake with PA and really wants a second chance from the MoH community with this new title and really wants to create a GREAT GAME", or two "It was just a marketing ploy by EA to garner interest in this title nothing more. The sucker I am, believed they wanted to do right contrary to many of my teammates that believed it was just total bs on EA's part. So far they were right and I was wrong because I believed in Blackhat's and EA's sincerity in this matter, as it stands now they were not sincere. As a company when you have customers questioning you're integrity.....in the future they may simply dismiss you entirely.

2) Dedicated threads where created here and elsewhere for everyone to post what would be necessary to create the ideal game and admining of that game from the public. Many, many great posts were made from that request, only to find out on release or close to release that the majority of the posts were a complete waste of time by those who had made them, because EA didn't get them or got them and said Nah we know what they want better than they the gaming public do. I now look at it as a slap in the face from them considering what I have seen in this title at release and its a joke. A single player game with less than 6 hours of playing time ? A Multiplayer if you call it that, that can only be played on a "listen server" with 12 players max ? What a joke...

As it stands now if you put out $39.99 or $49.99 of you're hard earned money towards it, thats all you get and a promise from EA that they will deliver a "dedicated server" in a patch 10 or 11 days after release, which still has to be delivered. I'm sorry but whoever decided to "RETAIL" the game from EA should be terminated because as EA now see's it's title is NOT selling as it should have and instead people are returning it for a refund. To me thats not hard to believe considering what they delivered as the package that could have been so much better if they only delivered from what they asked for by this and other websites they contacted for input. They have created a possible "A" title and turned it into a "D" title at launch....

If EA really wanted they could have created the best title out there with this game but as it stands now its really not worth the money, and I own a copy of it, and if it's not supported it will surely end up in the trash or a drink coaster that I will promise you. Some day companies will learn the the best thing they can possibily do to suceed is to simply LISTEN to it's BUYING PUBLIC !!!

I too hope EA won't dissapoint you're community of troopers too :) Thanks for what you guys do :)

There is another game coming out on the 18th of this month, it is a Sierra "Massive Entertainment" RPG/RTS title called World In Conflict, I have been on this one since Alpha testing and this company LISTENS and it shows, its gone gold already and they are clan friendly on top of it all and they are offering lots of money for planned tournaments and its going to be a game played at the summer 2007 CPL Championship games.

http://www.worldinconflict.com/

[Rigger82]

I can understand where you are coming from Rigger but I just don't feel EA is doing it right and I will tell you why....

1) EA announces MoH:AB to the public, BlackHat shows up as EA's represenative to multiple gaming and admining fourms asking for INPUT from the community on what would be necessary from a player and admining point of view to create the best game to date. This can be taken two ways one being "WoW, EA finally realizes the mistake with PA and really wants a second chance from the MoH community with this new title and really wants to create a GREAT GAME", or two "It was just a marketing ploy by EA to garner interest in this title nothing more. The sucker I am, believed they wanted to do right contrary to many of my teammates that believed it was just total bs on EA's part. So far they were right and I was wrong because I believed in Blackhat's and EA's sincerity in this matter, as it stands now they were not sincere. As a company when you have customers questioning you're integrity.....in the future they may simply dismiss you entirely.

2) Dedicated threads where created here and elsewhere for everyone to post what would be necessary to create the ideal game and admining of that game from the public. Many, many great posts were made from that request, only to find out on release or close to release that the majority of the posts were a complete waste of time by those who had made them, because EA didn't get them or got them and said Nah we know what they want better than they the gaming public do. I now look at it as a slap in the face from them considering what I have seen in this title at release and its a joke. A single player game with less than 6 hours of playing time ? A Multiplayer if you call it that, that can only be played on a "listen server" with 12 players max ? What a joke...

As it stands now if you put out $39.99 or $49.99 of you're hard earned money towards it, thats all you get and a promise from EA that they will deliver a "dedicated server" in a patch 10 or 11 days after release, which still has to be delivered. I'm sorry but whoever decided to "RETAIL" the game from EA should be terminated because as EA now see's it's title is NOT selling as it should have and instead people are returning it for a refund. To me thats not hard to believe considering what they delivered as the package that could have been so much better if they only delivered from what they asked for by this and other websites they contacted for input. They have created a possible "A" title and turned it into a "D" title at launch....

If EA really wanted they could have created the best title out there with this game but as it stands now its really not worth the money, and I own a copy of it, and if it's not supported it will surely end up in the trash or a drink coaster that I will promise you. Some day companies will learn the the best thing they can possibily do to suceed is to simply LISTEN to it's BUYING PUBLIC !!!

I too hope EA won't dissapoint you're community of troopers too :) Thanks for what you guys do :)

I get it completely, but what I THINK happened is that EA genuinely wanted to get the feedback and make a solid community connection. The unfortunate part turns out to be that the company didnt give the community manager any actual power WITHIN the company. Most of what Ive seen seems to be a community manager thats gathering up info and then feeding it into the EA internal machine. What happens at that point is anyones guess, from this vantage point I would think that some of the stuff gets heard and the rest gets tossed without comment. I would have liked to have seen all the items presented and the ones that are rejected have actual reasons why. At least then we might have known if there was some engine issue or longer term delay that would have negatively impacted the game development.

I have this feeling that EA is going to learn the hard way that listening harder to the people you hope to sell to is a big deal. If the consumers response is anything like the forum responses than I would believe that EA would recieve a message in the form of bottom line sales and overall interest (online game play and total players).

If they dont get the sales numbers, and the game doesnt have any MP life then my estimate would be that EA wouldnt return to the MOH franchise again.

Guess the other item is... EA is more than just MOH and that means they have a lot of other titles to fall back on. For smaller companies with a single title, this might have more impact.

[ButchCassidy]

It's so nice to see people debate these issues in a respectful and responsible way as they are important particularly on a site like FPSAdmin where most of the members are admins and are usually responsible for the up keep of many servers for either their clans or gaming groups.

As I have stated before the costs associated with running servers, websites etc in support of a title like Airborne far exceeds that of simply purchasing the game.

This is something that EA and other publishers fail to take onboard time and again.
If you want to have a great selling title then put the support into the title from day one.
This is exactly what we all were led to believe was going to happen with Airborne.
Many of us had doubts begining to creep in when planned inclusions began to go missing.
The Willis Jeep, the Pathfinder missions etc.
The fact that EA would not discuss or even provide the very basic info on the MP side of the game began to arouse even more suspicion that they were rushing the title out of the door and that there was either nothing special in the MP or that it was not ready at all.
Unfortuantely the latter proved to be the case.

All in all Airborne has been a very poorly handled release considering the huge interest in the title from not only the MOH community but other communties like those within the COD community who still want to play WW2 titles and not switch to the forthcoming Modern Warfare COD4.
Airborne seemed a perfect replacement for COD2.

It has to be said that appointing a community manager was a great idea but not listening to the feedback he was relaying WAS and IS now proving to be a costly mistake.
As we are all seeing Airborne is being panned almost everywhere by ordinary gamers who purchased the title and now find themselves with either a game that won't install or constantly crashes and has no viable Multiplayer out of the box.
Just how anyone at EA HQ thought they would swing that past people is beyond me.
Modern gamers are a lot smarter than that and support for a title is now a very big issue among them especially in the aftermath of the COD2 server strike.
If that day achieved only one thing it made a great many people aware of just what they should expect from a developer with regards to supporting their product.

I do hope that EA get this title back on track but it does now seem like a mountain to climb to bring any credibillity back to the title and the dev team.

[ATRAIN]

It's so nice to see people debate these issues in a respectful and responsible way as they are important particularly on a site like FPSAdmin where most of the members are admins and are usually responsible for the up keep of many servers for either their clans or gaming groups.

As I have stated before the costs associated with running servers, websites etc in support of a title like Airborne far exceeds that of simply purchasing the game.

This is something that EA and other publishers fail to take onboard time and again.
If you want to have a great selling title then put the support into the title from day one.
This is exactly what we all were led to believe was going to happen with Airborne.
Many of us had doubts begining to creep in when planned inclusions began to go missing.
The Willis Jeep, the Pathfinder missions etc.
The fact that EA would not discuss or even provide the very basic info on the MP side of the game began to arouse even more suspicion that they were rushing the title out of the door and that there was either nothing special in the MP or that it was not ready at all.
Unfortuantely the latter proved to be the case.

All in all Airborne has been a very poorly handled release considering the huge interest in the title from not only the MOH community but other communties like those within the COD community who still want to play WW2 titles and not switch to the forthcoming Modern Warfare COD4.
Airborne seemed a perfect replacement for COD2.

It has to be said that appointing a community manager was a great idea but not listening to the feedback he was relaying WAS and IS now proving to be a costly mistake.
As we are all seeing Airborne is being panned almost everywhere by ordinary gamers who purchased the title and now find themselves with either a game that won't install or constantly crashes and has no viable Multiplayer out of the box.
Just how anyone at EA HQ thought they would swing that past people is beyond me.
Modern gamers are a lot smarter than that and support for a title is now a very big issue among them especially in the aftermath of the COD2 server strike.
If that day achieved only one thing it made a great many people aware of just what they should expect from a developer with regards to supporting their product.

I do hope that EA get this title back on track but it does now seem like a mountain to climb to bring any credibillity back to the title and the dev team.

Good post, Couldn't have said it better.

[rudedog]

I get it completely, but what I THINK happened is that EA genuinely wanted to get the feedback and make a solid community connection. The unfortunate part turns out to be that the company didnt give the community manager any actual power WITHIN the company. Most of what Ive seen seems to be a community manager thats gathering up info and then feeding it into the EA internal machine. What happens at that point is anyones guess, from this vantage point I would think that some of the stuff gets heard and the rest gets tossed without comment. I would have liked to have seen all the items presented and the ones that are rejected have actual reasons why. At least then we might have known if there was some engine issue or longer term delay that would have negatively impacted the game development.

I have this feeling that EA is going to learn the hard way that listening harder to the people you hope to sell to is a big deal. If the consumers response is anything like the forum responses than I would believe that EA would recieve a message in the form of bottom line sales and overall interest (online game play and total players).

If they dont get the sales numbers, and the game doesnt have any MP life then my estimate would be that EA wouldnt return to the MOH franchise again.

Guess the other item is... EA is more than just MOH and that means they have a lot of other titles to fall back on. For smaller companies with a single title, this might have more impact.

Your first, sentence is correct and I still praise BH today. I feel that BH did everything he could, and what the community wanted, someone to listen to us and pass this info back to the powers to be. However like you stated, EA's decision makes don't have a clue.

Please remember that this is not the first time they have done this. EA did the same exact thing with PA. They invited us back to EA several times, to evaluate and ask for our suggestions. However, they brought us in at the very last minute and thus there was no way they could use any of our feedback. They basically made it look like they changed from the MOH:BT days, so we could say nice things and they could sell the game.

This is the main reason, I personally could not write a review like the new guys who based their reviews on promises EA made about things we could not see. I really hope they can just get the whole server sided patching thing fixed and sorted out for this Sept 17-ish patch. I really hope that EA delivers a "REAL" patch that includes a real dedicated server with all the basic features of a game released over 2/3 years ago.

EA delayed the game too many times and again, they use the we want to get it right so we have to delay it, then when it's released it's half complete.

The bigger issues is we have already been here before. EA can not pass another PA game on us this time. We've all been there done that before. I really think if they want to do a MOH game ,right next time (if there is one) they need to remove all the decision makers currently working on the game. They have proven over and over again, they don't have a clue on how to make a game their customers want to buy.

[<MAD> BUM]

Some good and interesting views here all to do with moha. will b passing on your site for our members to have a look.....tx all

[rudedog]

Thanks BUM,

However EA decides to support this game, like all past MOH games, we will continue to offer as much support as we can to admins.

[bullet-worm]

To clarify on what is being posted here, this site has little to nothing to do with the SINGLE player game. I don't think that ANYONE here speaks in reference to anything about the single-player portion of the game without expressly saying they are talking about single-player.

This site is all about multi-player, and more specifically, multi-player SERVERS.

Just keep in mind comments here are typically made with the understanding that they are being made specifically about the portion of the game relevant to this site.

I know this is UNDERSTOOD by most of the regulars here, but it seems that there have been quite a few new guys flowing through here lately and I think it just makes sense to clarify what may not be so obvious to others.

worm

[rudedog]

well said bullet, thanks:salute:

[bones801]

bullet, I need to talk with you. It's really important. *cough* I'm a league admin *cough*

[necrodoggy]

Guess the other item is... EA is more than just MOH and that means they have a lot of other titles to fall back on. For smaller companies with a single title, this might have more impact.

EA has shown their stripes one too many times for my liking. They are bottom line oriented only and will basically steal my money any way they can. For that reason not only will I not buy MOH:A, but I will not buy any EA product in future and I will tell my 60+ clan mates not to buy any EA products again.

You're right Rigger, EA can do whatever they want, and I can do the same. I can buy from another game company and I can do everything in my power to convince as many other people as possible not to buy AE products.

You please one customer and you get a customer who will bring in more customers. You piss one customer off and you loose that customer and all the potential customers that person reaches.