discuss admin anti cheat

[rudedog]

Just wanted to get things started, discuss anti cheat addons and software.

[BoSBrian]

Any questions?

Punkbuster out of the box.....

Don't have it, won't buy it.

[TheLini]

Certainly the game will need something.

I'm not entirely sure if PB is the correct thing to use, but then again, I dont think anything will be able to stop all cheats.

If PB is to be used, it could do with a better way to configure it, PB is not for the feint hearted. I have always found the PB auto update a bit poo on linux, so good auto-updating of any anti-cheat solution is very important, regardless of what platform you run it on.

[Avarell_Dalton]

a system like the ones out now for moh is needed. you must be able to control the server without joining the server and a console isn't enough, a user friendly gui needed

EDIT: typo

[rudedog]

I'd like to see developer specific A/C. Why give cheaters a way around one A/C that works for every game out there.

Then you could use this developer specific A/C for all EA games. Granted we will have to learn a new system for each game but then again it's worth it in the long run to make it harder on the cheat makers themselves.

I would assume in the long run this would save EA money as well.

What ever is used, it must be out of the box, including the demo if any (which is another issues). We need something better then Punkbuster but again that's all we really have one punk buster for all FPS games. they crack it once they have free rain over all FPS games.

[U-z-i Kidding]

PB is far from perfect but out of the ac's out there at least this one is mainstream and there is plenty of docs for admins to read up on.

On it's own I believe its far from the best but nothing stops clans from clubbing together to acquire additional anticheats progs if they want them. I know our clan are signed up to punksbusted and all our servers stream.

Majority of titles are released with PB as standard and I think this is good for the mainstream hacks. At least having an anticheat on release is a must.

If no anticheat is available with the game then the cost should also reflect this. Clans will have to know they are going to have to make their choices with what anticheat programs are available and pay for what the server admin is comfortable/competent with. No matter what prog is used there will always be cheats but of course it comes down to how much the clans want to pay to eliminate it as much as possible.

Creating an own inhouse anticheat prog I would see as not being so cost effective taking into account the various licenced engines bought for games to be created. Look at how many games have been created using the Quake 3 engine. Should the responsibilty lie with the dev/pub to create inhouse anticheat measures themselves from an engine they had to pay the license for.

[Ghost-Ryder]

A/C must take a different approch to cheader.They need to Disable the CD Key if cought.As it stands right now PB will only kick if he is cought cheating.If he removes the cheat he can continue playing and try enoughter cheat.The only hardware ban is usues when it interfirce with PB Operation.If the Devs don't take a harder stand torts cheater it will never put a dent in it.Even then it wont stop all but it will be reduce it quiet a bit.They don't update enought I mean every few month is not good enought.I know about the silent updates but still it got to be better then it is right now.

[ButchCassidy]

I agree with Rudedog and in this particular instance I believe that DMW is the perfect answer to EA's problems with an AC for Airborne.

The fact that DMW has been used for so long in the MOH series makes it perfect for use in the new title.

The new version of DMW is far more robust and Admin freindly than previous versions.
They have come a long way and now offer a top quality product.
All that's really missing is to have it included into the game as PB would be.
I also believe that PB has far to little competition and as a result is not the product it really should be because of this lack of competition.

It's about time the major Publishers and Developers began to look at working with different AC companies with a view to making them either developer specific or at least another seudo in-house arm of the overall project or projects that they are building.

This would allow AC companies a much better chance of building better AC systems in the long run.
Internet gaming IS the future of gaming overall and for the smart and visionary companies putting a robust and well planned support infrastructure in place will be the cornerstone of their success.
Having a very good AC system will be one very large chunck of that stone.

[OldDog]

I don't know, Butch. The major issue for me, with PB, is the fact that its independent of all devs, and is built-in. Can we count on the devs producing/managing/administering A/C for each of their products? Hell, we have enough problems with them producing patches for their games. I don't buy that they will want to add another layer to each game (or game family) they produce. PB has some problems and they need competition, I agree, but the commonality across multiple games, and independence, appeals to me. DMW has a great start on this, all its lacking, I agree, is a 'built-in'. This is the converse of RD's point, admittedly, that once a cheater finds a solution, that solution can work for all/most games, but I think that the benefits outweigh the risks.

[ButchCassidy]

Hi OldDog

I think you may have slightly misread me.
When i mention "seudo in-house" I mean that AC companies should be brought into the build process much earlier and therefore become part of the team.
I agree that some form autonomy is needed with regards to the Administration of AC but they do need to be involved with the project build to a degree before the game is released and to do that they would need to be almost considered by the makers as in-house so that they are included in the information loop.

How many times do we see PB being intergrated AFTER the release instead of at release?

I believe that companies like DMW must be brought in so that we don't end up with a single AC company that has no drive because it has no competition.

DMW would be ideal for Airborne because they know the MOH series and it's community so well.

[OldDog]

Butch,

Thx for the clarification...I did misread.

Do we have any sense of where Airborne is in this area? DMW, PB? Blackhat?

[BoSBrian]

I like RD's idea of an EA sponsored anti-cheat. It would give PB some much needed competition and the cheaters a challange.

The only downside to this is that the big game developers such as EA and Activision stop all support after their product drops from the "best sellers" list. So what is to happen to the a/c product when its no longer supported for that specific game?

I still think that PB is the way to go for Airborne, unless EA is ready to sign on a different company similar to evenbalance who will develop and maintain and a/c product.

Regardless of EA's decision, a working a/c out-of-the-box is a MUST HAVE!

[BlackHat]

Butch,

Thx for the clarification...I did misread.

Do we have any sense of where Airborne is in this area? DMW, PB? Blackhat?

I'm sure you saw this one coming from a mile away ....

I can't really say anything right now :)

[rudedog]

Thanks for at least recognizing this thread BH. At least we know your reading this stuff, which is a lot more then the other guy(s) are doing.


I think most of us want at LEAST something out of the box.

[GaSplat]

I know CS was synonomous with cheating, but I don't know how efffective the VAC (Valve AntiCheat) used on all the source games really is. Designing a AC solution off the basic engine certainly offers both economic and technical advantages, particularly when supported by a company that supports its products as well as Valve seems to be doing (latest free expansion for Day of Defeat has a whole new game mode as well as maps). Depends on EAs commitment to the franchise.

[BlackHat]

Yeah, I've been talking to Tom Hess a lot about Anti-Cheat, and getting it in the box before it hits shelves. I just don't have anything I can say yet, but know that everyone's at least aware of the desire to have it there. :) I personally support the idea of a company-driven A/C, but I'm not in charge of the company :) I'd love to see something developed in-house that would work with all of our games, and get updated on a semi-annual basis or something... it would almost be like another Madden team or something, but all they do is Anti-Cheat. That said, it's a very resource intensive endeavour to take on, and being that I don't run the company, there are likely a thousand hurdles to that plan that I haven't ever thought of.

[ButchCassidy]

Thanks for the input Blackhat
I do believe that having an AC out of the box will prove to be a very important issue for not only current fans of the MOH series but new customers as well.

As I have stated I do believe that there needs to be far more choice in the AC systems market place in order to drive on improvement and innovation.

In my personal opinion DMW is ready for a main stream release and if built into a full game release would provide not only a very good AC but also a very good competitor for PB.

You guys at EA and Airborne have a very good opportunity to break a monoply in this respect and I would have thought considering that DMW has been used in MOHAA and spearhead which were both released without an AC it was well worth considering?
Drop by the site and have a look http://www.dmwworld.com/index.php

[U-z-i Kidding]

You can put my head on the block here Butch ;)

We have fought tooth and nail to ask for support within CoD2 and as you are very aware DMW did come into the equation during this time.

My biggest fear with DMW is that little word called SUPPORT. I feel DMW has been a big let down in this area. I know you paid for subscription to them Butch and you get your answers but for those clients that couldn't even get on DMW servers and submitted tickets they are still waiting to get the answers to this day.

I feel this personally will be where DMW fails and will be biting off more than they can chew if this AC is considered to be incorporated within MoH:A.

Surely DMW's support will be taken up by the paying customer for certain subscription services and I really don't think they have the capability to take on a game that looks as if it's going to be hit with the full support that is going to be needed on all levels.

[TripleX]

DMW is the best anti cheat in all MoH online games... and i think if DMW join forces with EA , and they recognize DMW has the official MoH Airborne Anti Cheat , i think this would be the correct choice! DMW is great , and joining forces with EA , DMW will be gigant in the world community gaming , and maybe in the future DMW coverage most of all online games , has we want!

We are sick of pseudo anti cheat softwares... let DMW prove that is the best of all!!

EA & DMW will do a great job together in future , im sure of it :D

[ButchCassidy]

My Clan subscribed in order to run our yearly tournament because CoD2 had no built in AC at release. (again)

Remember that the intial release from DMW was a beta for CoD2.
You must also take into account that CoD2 graphically caused PB problems that's why it was delayed because of the DX7, DX9 issues and when PB was released it did not work properly!!!
BUT DMW's did...even at beta!

Evenbalance were given full access to the source code and released a version that had missing guid numbers so you could not apply bans.

It seems to me that for a very small and locally funded company to be the very first people release an AC for a major title like CoD2 and get it working and then have to try and compete in the market place with Evenbalance who had recieved full access to the game code and then had PB released via a patch into the game and been paid a huge amount of money to do so...Is a little like comparing a Sunday Soccer team with a Giant professionl team.

They may have the skilled players and the talent but they simply have not got the access to the resources.

And that is my point until competition is put in place on a level playing field how can we judge the two in these terms other than to say DMW have what it takes to provide a top quality product but they have not been given the chance to prove it.
PB is a good product but because of a lack of competition it is not as good as it could be.

Unless Publishers and Developers take the plunge and and allow the likes of DMW to compete we will continue to see more lazy releases from Evenbalance like the CoD2 one.
Christ how can you release a main stream AC into a top 10 title that does not allow cheats to be banned across the board??

But we are talking about the MOH series and DMW have been involved in this game series for a very long time.
They are the ONLY AC company supporting Allied Assault, Spearhead and Breakthrough.
Old titles which they are still doggedly supporting because there are still large communities and players playing them.
This is a case of "Horses for Courses" DMW know the series and the communities Evenbalance do not.

As i have said before..it would seem that change in the gaming industry needs to driven by us the customers when it comes to getting support and the right tools in place to allow everyone to enjoy the product to it's fullest when playing online.

Look at the PB MBL run by a 3rd party group NOT Evenbalance.
So I see no real master plan behind PB's support nor is it any better than DMW's.

When was the last time you spoke to a PB employee on Teamspeak?
As you know UZI DMW provide a full Teamspeak support channel for Clients to gain first hand support free of charge..So I don't think the support issue is an issue at all.
DMW just do it on a much more accessible level for the client.

Putting some competition in place for EB and punkbuster will only do one thing.. IMPROVE BOTH PRODUCTS....

[U-z-i Kidding]

You pay for your support Butch via a subscription so DMW are obliged to support you.

As a client using their program and trying to gain support I'm afraid to say that DMW failed dismally in this area. That is from my own personal experience and also several other members of the clan. It shouldn't matter if it's a beta program, full program, if you pay for it or if you don't.

If you cannot connect to servers with that software installed then obviously you would hope for them to answer questions and solve the issues. DMW failed in this area which does leave me with concerns.

If you connect to DMW's website and check staff numbers out they have one Support Manager and the Support Team consists of one person. Do you believe beyond any reasonable doubt that they are even able to support a major title with the amount of support staff they have. Maybe this could be the reason why the client that doesn't pay for packages does not get the support as I have discovered firsthand.

I do believe there should be competition for Evenbalance and there should be a shake up of the AC system and am glad that the need for this is being recognised. Whether we will see it implemented in the future is another thing.

[MHD Sirus]

If you connect to DMW's website and check staff numbers out they have one Support Manager and the Support Team consists of one person. Do you believe beyond any reasonable doubt that they are even able to support a major title with the amount of support staff they have.

I Disagree, they have 1 support manager and assistant who is in charge, then they have approx 10 other Super Mods answering tickets ,not to mention International Ticket Support, English/French/Spanish/Portuguese/Swedish/German/Dutch/Belgium is naming only a few. The possible full amount of 26 in the team is more than enough to support a major title release.


As i posted on the EA Forum ill also repeat on here :

All in all, myself and the other 20 in my clan would prefer DMW as the chosen AC, PB has grown old and the amount of Website where you can purchase Custom made bypasses for PB is ridiculous.

Im thinking about it this way :

1.DMW Works
2.DMW Have Auto Updates (No Searching Required)
3.DMW Have a respectable Support Team
4.DMW Hardware Ban (On all supported games in extreme circumstances)
5. DMW Have there own banlist.
6.DMW doesnt need to go to a 3rd party Website to download the MBL/Program nor do you need to wait "Days" for you server to start streaming.(Its instant)
7. My Clan also uses DMW for COD2, They allow all Community MODS/MAPS to be used in COD2.
8. DMW Have a ticket system & a "Support Teamspeak" where members can pop on for some advice.
9.DMW Have there own Appeals system, again they dont need a 3rd party website to manage that either.
10.DMW have a more advanced screenshot facility than PB.
11. Up to date "I Think" but dont quote me, DMW have 16 members in there team, From Support to Development, so there team is not limited at all.(not inc MODS)
12. And another important fact is that, DMW is a registered company, so they are not here to mess around

The one thing that annoys me about setting up a PB enabled server is the amount of messing around it takes to get it working. It isnt user friendly from a server admin side of things. PB Screwed up implementing there AC into D3D Engine games to start with (so i heard). DMW, who has not even yet been considered as a possible "in-built" AC implemented/hooked there AC into COD2 D3D engine without problems, and more to the point, without any source code from developers. That tells me that they have professionalism and the coders in the team to achieve what every community wants, an Anti-Cheat that finally works!

Setting up a DMW Enabled server for MoH & Cod2 took me & my clan no more than 5 minutes.

If given the chance they can be the Top AC out there, they are willing to listen to what communities want,they have private forums for League admin discussions, in fact,everything you need or want to do ,can be found on there website, its all there unlike PB's (IE: "go here for help , go there for help" go to our "3rd party website for help")

An in-house AC could be interesting, although not cost effective for EA. EA should merge with DMW with this, and ea could hire all of there team to carry out the "EA-Anticheat" everybody would like to see..:)

Seriously though, as butch states, they need a chance.
Obviously DMW would change if needed to suit the developers game as well as the communities views i think.

Iam willing to purchase yet another game of the medal of honor series, If and only if they scrap PB and put another anticheat in there game when you pick it up off the shelf, knowing that at least you dont have to wait 6 months for some sort of protection.

Activision failed to listen to the community for COD2, which have left a lot of people dissatisfied, EA have to introduce an AC before the game is released. Therefore, the protection is there, and the Trust remains in the gamers purchasing an EA Game. This is where EA can differ from one of there biggest competitors, Activision.

-Sirus

[U-z-i Kidding]

Maybe the pubs/devs could consider payment via performance related?

This could be a very viable way of bringing other AC developers programs to the table, but not necessarily having to bear the full brunt for trying it out and giving them the opportunity to show what they can do.

It could be possible to pay the production cost of the AC program and its incorporation into the game and the profit is to be paid when certain targets are met at set periods through the expected shelf life of the game. This would keep the AC programmers on their toes rather than being paid the lump sum to begin with and updating on an as and when basis. Maybe then we would see the change.

This could be gauged through forums and feedback threads and who better to give a verdict than the customers using it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not about getting one company incorporated this is about finding a way to make the AC market competitive and work for us.

As we all know the biggest thing we like to see is choice its just the matter of funding it.

As Blackhat stated its going to take a lot of resources and from a dev/publishers point of view you know they are going to go with the safe bet.

If AC developers want to be in on it then they are going to have to find a way to get themselves noticed. I would hope that the above is one possibility of incorporating such a practise and one that could appeal to pubs/devs and a way to incorporate the smaller companies into the competitive market.

It's very easy to argue which program is better but it comes down to personal preferences, I will guarantee one thing that we will agree on and that is 'nothings perfect' lol.

If we want to see what the AC devs can do then we need more of them to step forward, I'm afraid I don't make a very good saleswoman when it comes too DMW though lmao

[ButchCassidy]

Great post UZI and some very good ideas..

[InfinityDevils]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but here are my views on this subject.. To this day I sit and scratch my head wondering what goes on in the heads of game developers and distributers like EA and Activision. I have been gaming for the last 10 to 15 years and to this day I still can not understand how any developer or publisher would even think of putting out an FPS product without a anticheat in box. Do they think cheating is going away, do game developers and distributers think that because a game looks cool we will buy it without an AC included in-box ? Well not this consumer, with what I have gone through with CoD2 (Activision) I swore NEVER to buy another online game without AC support from the get-go. I am sure I speak for many others out there, disenchanted with what us gamers have been dealt in the past and we have smartened up quite a bit.

BlackHAT <- rudedog fixed :). now is the time for EA to redeem themselves (Pacific Assault was a complete bust, sorry) to the FPS gaming community, games are played for competitition and fun, how much fun is a game when you have cheaters running rampant on your servers. Believe me its NOT fun and NOT fair either. I know you can never stop cheating but lets at least use something where you can have at least some peace of mind knowing that everyone is on a level playing field. If I were making a anti-cheat I would make sure it shuts down ALL windows processes except the ones needed for the game, communication (Teamspeak or Ventrillo) and of course Windows itself, I would only dream of a AC that can scan someones computer and see if there are processes running that should not be running if you know what I mean. There is nothing on my pc that I am afraid of anyone seeing so let them scan away because that way I would know that I am being watched and that alone would make cheating alot more difficult and hopefully no fun at all for the cheaters.
So wether its a In-House AC, DMW or PB it better be in the box or I'm NOT buying it ! You can take that to the bank !

[ButchCassidy]

A great post and one which poses many questions for EA as they need to get this right from release.

Ac from the box and make your choice of AC developer to suit the game and the community.

I know what my first choice would be but do EA have the balls to make that choice?

[MAJ.BRUNO]

In my opinion: The success could be made certain, and ea could save alot of money in the process, as well as gaining alot of new and old players respect along the way.

The solution, forget pb, save the money. Do an in-house a/c solution based off the game.exe

Allow server admins to view anything within the game dir, and when joining a protected server integrate a thread process check (more about this upon request) on everything that hooks the game.exe, as well as a full game shutdown-restart like quake4 for example when joining a server that's modded. EA has an opportunity to regain the respect of the entire pc-gaming community, if they only think about what could be done, that others refuse to admit. This solution is within reason, and would cost alot less than punkbuster.

Let me give an example:

MOH:Airborne Let's say the game is not as good as say BF2, but they decide to take a new approach with a completely in-house, up to date anti-cheat that targets the client when it matters, when they play on cheat free servers.

1.Would you play this game over a better game that has many cheats?

2.Could they implement the same technology to future, and past games as well?

As a moh member i'd be happy to discuss this further with ea staff, if Infinity Ward had a soul, they could have benefited from the same concept. I should not have to give answers to either question, you should know them yourself.

The name of this thread: Admin Anti-Cheat, if there were a game that was actually controlled by a server admin, with an in house a/c solution, you would have the only solution. EA in my opinion would have the greatest ability to make this happen, as well as being able to license the technology behind it.

A cure for cancer may not be in my lifetime, but a far-better solution than punkbuster better be!

EDIT: DMW is not a solution, and in no way could be called one. Waste of money in my opinion, they can have my silver subscription back. This does nothing unless the client has it installed and properly configured. If you are cheating, you're not going to use it. It takes only a few hours to bypass punkbuster, and DMW, and any other similar solution.

[rudedog]

To me this is the problem/issue. Because all we really have right now is PB across multiple platforms developers and publisher. Once PB is cracked for one it's cracked for all.

Funny thing is and here is my old time rant waaayyy back in the MOHAA days. We all blame the publishers for these cheats, we should be blaming the video card companies who don't lock down their drivers. This is how the first wall hack was made, a video card company boasted about how their drivers could see through walls [sick] . We still need to hold the dev/pub accountable but lets through the video card companies in there as well.

The more options out there the better we are all in the long run.

[Wolverine]

EDIT: DMW is not a solution, and in no way could be called one. Waste of money in my opinion, they can have my silver subscription back. This does nothing unless the client has it installed and properly configured. If you are cheating, you're not going to use it. It takes only a few hours to bypass punkbuster, and DMW, and any other similar solution.

DMW works the way it does by necessity because it is NOT integrated with any game. You would think that was fairly obvious, but perhaps not. :rolleyes:

[MAJ.BRUNO]

DMW works the way it does by necessity because it is NOT integrated with any game. You would think that was fairly obvious, but perhaps not. :rolleyes:

Don't be a hater: You will always be a step behind, don't worry, i still love ya man.[hand]

The obvious, to clear it up to Mr.Shimjocky, and to those who share his opinion: DMW has no chance of creating a solution, anytime in the near future. They are capable of producing an added option, if everyone who joins the server has the client. If so it is 90% effective, this happens about 5% of the time if you are lucky enough to have those odds. DMW is not sanctioned by any ladder, and it costs money. Money that i would rather give to the game developers for a solution, and what ever that may be, it would be guaranteed to be sanctioned by every ladder because it came with the game. How many times do you get a screenshot from a player that does not have the client on your server? What have you done to help other server admins, or the community?

I'm sorry Shimjocky, but this is a discussion about a new game for server admins, if you think DMW is effective for current games, then fine, believe it. If you are mad because i could care less about my silver subscription, then you can have it.

[ButchCassidy]

Where do some of you people get your info from?
The back of serial boxes?

"DMW is not sanctioned by any ladder"

DMW is the official cheat protection of MOHAA at Clanbase.
It has also been used in the ED ladders.

I noted you say "i would rather give to the game developers for a solution, and what ever that may be, it would be guaranteed to be sanctioned by every ladder because it came with the game"

Of course a built in solution would be sanctioned by every ladder because no league or ladder will pay to use another AC when a game has one built into it?
Whats the point in that?


Shimjocky is correct about how DMW works right now.
Because it has never been given the opportunity to be included into a game it must rely upon everyone manually enabling it and not automatically having it as in PB.

"How many times do you get a screenshot from a player that does not have the client on your server?"

I don't how you have set up your DMW server MAJ.BRUNO but I know that if you enable it.
When players join who do not have the client they recieve a message onscreen telling them they have either not enabled the client or they don't have it.

It also tells them just prior to being kicked to visit the DMW site to get one.

You will never get a shot from someone who does not have it but then again you would'nt get this in PB either if PB was NOT intergrated into a game.
PB would have to work in exactly the same way that DMW does if it was not intergrated.

"and it costs money."

Please try to remember that at present Evenbalance have a near monopoly with regards to in-game AC.
Therefore they are able to set their own prices without fear of any competitive price being sought by a developer.

DMW is funded by the public purchasing the product from them.
PB is funded by game Developers paying for the privilage and the public are given it free via patch usually.

So just how does any other AC company compete with Evenblance?

If DMW was included into a game then everyone would get it free the same way they get Punkbuster.
Why would anyone think it would be any different to PB in this respect?

I believe that the AC market must be opened up and Publishers and Developers must look to bring other products into the market place.
It is very unhealthy to have just one product being used all the time.

Competition will drive up quality and drive down prices and this benefits all concermed.

[MAJ.BRUNO]

With all due respect to Jim, take care because you fn people are clueless.

Butch & ShimJocky


Sry Jim, i just can't tolerate ignorant admins, take care.

[Wolverine]

With all due respect to Jim, take care because you fn people are clueless.




Sry Jim, i just can't tolerate ignorant admins, take care.

Flame N run...........nice.

[MAJ.BRUNO]

Flame N run...........nice.

My ventrilo info can easily be found at dfrclan.com, if you'd like to talk some more. You can also send me a pm if you would like to make this more personal.

You, might want to run.

[Wolverine]

My ventrilo info can easily be found at dfrclan.com, if you'd like to talk some more. You can also send me a pm if you would like to make this more personal.

You, might want to run.

Nah, dont think I will be going anywhere. You are the one who made it personal with the name calling. I dont think I have any desire to talk to you on vent. If you cant be civil on this MB just imagine how you would act on your own vent, no thanks.

I have been running servers for a good long while now for a variety of games. I consider myself to be far from "Ignorant" and I bet Butch feels the same.

[MAJ.BRUNO]

Too bad, i would have loved the chance at proving your ignorance in person. It's ok hide behind the post.

[Wolverine]

Too bad, i would have loved the chance at proving your ignorance in person. It's ok hide behind the post.

OK Because I respect Rudedog this is where I will end this. I am sorry I seem to have stepped on your tiny little E Ego. Might wanna see someone about that.

Rudedog if you read this feel free to remove any of my off topic posts from this thread. :)

[ButchCassidy]

Too bad, i would have loved the chance at proving your ignorance in person. It's ok hide behind the post.

I too have been an Admin for a very very long time.
It seems to me that by making veiled threats it is you who are proving to be ignorant.

I have no need to be rude or condecending to anyone as this is an open debate about Airbornes intended Anti-Cheat.

If you have issue with my post then please point out where?

On the other hand if you cannot accept that every now and again you may not be right about something then please refrain from posting threats.
They devalue your posts and this important thread.

Plus it's not very nice....

[MAJ.BRUNO]

Who said anything about threats, i'm talking about your inability to face the facts. You hide behind a false sense of reality. If it makes you feel comfortable that you only have pb, and you can only feel some moderate safety if all players have dmw client on your server, how is that server doing anyway? What do you get for pubs in there? How about your own clan members? It's not a viable solution, meantime you think i'm being ignorant. The only thing you are doing right is telling me i'm afraid to be wrong, when it sounds like you are afraid to think about anything that's not already there. If a current a/c solution worked, i wouldn't have too waste my time explaining anything to you. DMW is not an option for this game, i'll give you several reason's, as you are not as smart as you think you are:

1. It run's outside the game exe, ea is not going to publish a game that requires a 3rd party program that's not punkbuster.

2. DMW will never get the full code for airborne or any past game, simply because they exist outside of ea's network, and would never pass the legal dept.

3. And to sum it up, this is why IW is not thinking about cod3 for pc, and why cheaters will always be a step ahead.

Because they create new cheats as easy as it is for you to think, that what we have, is enough. Think about that Mr. Cassidy before you make another reply about ignorance...

If you would like to talk about this more, you have the same offer i gave Shimmy.

[rudedog]

I think this thread brings to light how much people want good a/c out of the box by the publisher - that is the key.

When you have a 3rd party who's hands are tied you can not complete with something integrated.

I hope EA thinks long and hard on this, this could be the hardest thing to figure out and the next hardest thing to implement.

Right now you have an integrated a/c (PB) being compared to a third part. It's not fair, we need a closely integrated a/c that will be supported across the board well after a game ships.

Everyone take some deep breaths and remember all we want is:
- something integrated
- something that really works
- something that will be supported for a long time.

[MHD Sirus]

This does nothing unless the client has it installed and properly configured. If you are cheating, you're not going to use it.

Mabye because the Anti-Cheat isn't built into the game? The client is basically

Install
Log In
Play

[ButchCassidy]

Who said anything about threats, i'm talking about your inability to face the facts. You hide behind a false sense of reality. If it makes you feel comfortable that you only have pb, and you can only feel some moderate safety if all players have dmw client on your server, how is that server doing anyway? What do you get for pubs in there? How about your own clan members? It's not a viable solution, meantime you think i'm being ignorant. The only thing you are doing right is telling me i'm afraid to be wrong, when it sounds like you are afraid to think about anything that's not already there. If a current a/c solution worked, i wouldn't have too waste my time explaining anything to you. DMW is not an option for this game, i'll give you several reason's, as you are not as smart as you think you are:

1. It run's outside the game exe, ea is not going to publish a game that requires a 3rd party program that's not punkbuster.

2. DMW will never get the full code for airborne or any past game, simply because they exist outside of ea's network, and would never pass the legal dept.

3. And to sum it up, this is why IW is not thinking about cod3 for pc, and why cheaters will always be a step ahead.

Because they create new cheats as easy as it is for you to think, that what we have, is enough. Think about that Mr. Cassidy before you make another reply about ignorance...

If you would like to talk about this more, you have the same offer i gave Shimmy.

Mmmm pretty strong stuff "an inabillity to face facts, a false sense of reality."
So lets take a step at a time shall we.
You say I can't face facts, well in this instance the facts are that PB is interagted into games and DMW has never had that opportunity.
So in my "false sense of reality" it would appear to me there is only one AC system currently being placed into games by developers and that being PB.
Making the market place devoid of any competition and allowing Evenbalance to have almost a complete monopoly.

The rest of your post seems a little unclear to me as you go on to talk about my servers and if "a current a/c solution worked, i wouldn't have too waste my time explaining anything to you."??

But to cut to the chase and as Jim has pointed out.

Your three reasons why "DMW is not an option for this game"

1. It run's outside the game exe, ea is not going to publish a game that requires a 3rd party program that's not punkbuster.

Well the answer is because it has never been allowed to compete with PB by being included into game nor has any other AC for that matter.
In fact as stated only Evenbalance have been given this chance to so do by developers.
By having competition it will only drive up quality and drive down prices and this benefits all concermed.

2. DMW will never get the full code for airborne or any past game, simply because they exist outside of ea's network, and would never pass the legal dept.

And I repeat...The answer is because it has never been allowed to compete with PB by being included into game nor has any other AC for that matter.
In fact as stated only Evenbalance have been given this chance to so do by developers.
By having competition it will only drive up quality and drive down prices and this benefits all concermed.

3. And to sum it up, this is why IW is not thinking about cod3 for pc, and why cheaters will always be a step ahead.

I fail to see what CoD3 has got to do with Airbornes anti-cheat?
Oh and by the way IW are not making CoD3 a console only developer has been appointed by Activision called Treyarch.

And finally to your last point..Yes cheats are being made all the time by some sad plebs for even sadder morons.
It's a fact of life that nearly all software can be hacked so are we saying let's give in and let them win?

No.. all we are asking for is for EA to consider DMW for Airbornes AC and thereby put some competition into the market place that will drive on improvements and quality in the way AC is made.
If not then we will be seeing the same old PB for years to come.

[BlackHat]

You say I can't face facts, well in this instance the facts are that PB is interagted into games and DMW has never had that opportunity.

Out of curiosity, do you know if DMW has even tried, or are they waiting for guys like you to convince developers to come to them?

[rudedog]

I have some contact info that Butch wanted me to pass along Blackhat, I just did not get a chance to have any computer time this weekend.

I don't personally know the history in regards to DMW contacting EA or EA contacting DMW.

[ButchCassidy]

Blackhat check your PM's my friend..

[aftermathgamers]

Would DMW allow us to use mods if it was used?

[Avarell_Dalton]

All respect to DMV and the team behind it! For me though an in house a/c solution would feel best. The reason for this is i think that i don't know what DMV actually is. Is it a bunch of buddies with a qest for life? Will the interest in this specific a/c hold for the games life cycle? It's one thing to have a hobby, another one to run a company. To me it's too many questions to feel comfy with dmv.

The dream scenario i guess would be a community as devoted as the team behind Firefox or Linux, who makes the a/c as open source but would EA give away up the source code?

Hmz, ask the Firefox team, offer them some sort of financial agrement... great thought but don't ask the stock holders first

[OldDog]

The dream scenario i guess would be a community as devoted as the team behind Firefox or Linux, who makes the a/c as open source but would EA give away up the source code?

Hmmm...sounds like you're describing PB...

[ButchCassidy]

All respect to DMV and the team behind it! For me though an in house a/c solution would feel best. The reason for this is i think that i don't know what DMV actually is. Is it a bunch of buddies with a qest for life? Will the interest in this specific a/c hold for the games life cycle? It's one thing to have a hobby, another one to run a company. To me it's too many questions to feel comfy with dmv.

The dream scenario i guess would be a community as devoted as the team behind Firefox or Linux, who makes the a/c as open source but would EA give away up the source code?

Hmz, ask the Firefox team, offer them some sort of financial agrement... great thought but don't ask the stock holders first

I think you'll find that DMW are a company and sell their product to the public direct.
They are in my opinion responsible for MOHAA still being a viable online game by providing the only AC solution available.
Now to me the fact that they are supporting this games community long after EA have stopped actually supporting the game speaks volumes about their commitment to both the gamers and the product.

As for an in house AC the facts are that it is very very unlikely EA will produce one.
Development costs and the requirement for ongoing support costs make this a very unattractive option for Games developers.
Hence the option of a much cheaper overall 3rd party AC system.
My main worry with PB (yet again) being used is the distinct lack of competition in the market place which in fact does no one any favours.

No competition means no requirement to improve the product or offer it at a competitive price.

Evenbalance have a very nice monopoly thank you very much and competition would only spoil the popular misconception that they are the only people who can make a game AC.
Which is very much NOT the case.
Bringing companies like DMW into the mainstream can only benefit everyone as it would provide much needed competition to EB.
Driving up quality and driving down prices..

[Avarell_Dalton]

As for an in house AC the facts are that it is very very unlikely EA will produce one.
Development costs and the requirement for ongoing support costs make this a very unattractive option for Games developers.
Driving up quality and driving down prices..
Ok, i didn't know that, hm, we should have been noticed erlier. Whats the point discussing in house.. ah



Bringing companies like DMW into the mainstream can only benefit everyone as it would provide much needed competition to EB.
Driving up quality and driving down prices..
There's a point.

So to sum up, there are only two options, PB or DMW. Well, then I can't really decide

[Avarell_Dalton]

Hmmm...sounds like you're describing PB...

Ok, I had no idea from what PB was born, or DMW to be honest

[ButchCassidy]

I think Avarell you have proved my point.

Some people don't want to see DMW looked at because they either don't know what or who they are and as a result make their judgement based upon the fact that they know or have heard of Punkbuster.
It's a sad fact of life that most people are resistant to any kind of change if it comes with the unknown quantity of "I don't know what it is" labled to it.

That's the power of a monopoly it does not allow people to think beyond the most well known product.
Even developers are guilty of this and as a consequence Evenbalance and their punkbuster product are never challenged.

How good is PB if their is no competition in place to push it?

I have used DMW and on both the Admin and client side have found it at least the equal of Punkbuster if not better.

It's time that the big developers put them into the firing line up against PB because if they don't we will never know just how good Anti-cheat can get.
With no competition PB will have no reason to improve other than very very slowly and at their own leisurely pace....if at all!

[aftermathgamers]

Keep it to punkbuster in my opinion

[D.O.A.]

DMW for me, used it before for mohaa and wished more peeps would use DMW for cod2

[tkmorris]

DMW is the only AC for me, fast, stable, with a good and powerfull support.

[jahsoul]

DMW is growing maybe at the fastest rate possible for an anticheat that started from scratch and without any support from EA. At this moment dmw is maybe the best anticheat that the moh series has ever had even counting with pacific assault that had that ugly PB thingy (which i bought and deeply regret it...worst 50€ spent in my life). DMW is right now preparing for a major update that has some great user friendly features from which i state the on-game Anti- cheat menu, from where admin can kick, ban, take SS and do other important stuff to keep cheaters out of our backs. DMW is MOD oriented although people say they aren't, but this is a lie, DMW supports more than 30 maps and extra skins, the problem is that people are confusing DMW software with www.clanbase.com Moh:AA rules which state that nobody can have anything past stock pk3 and 2 other maps, v2shelter and VSUK abbey beta. This my friends is Clanbase's fault not DMW's. DMW supports mods and very well. DMW exists for maybe two years now and as grown to be the ONLY option for moh users to play clean. Everybody as forgotten Pandora, serverwhatch, foresight and the other thingy from 2002 "something play fair", the first moh anticheat ever. I don't place my hands on the fire for DMW crew but, i have to recognize that their efforts are paying back and really well, and if anyone was to take such a burden of making the MOH:Airborne anticheat it should be them. They are the more experienced, skilled and better organized to do so, plus they have the community's support which means everything. DMW should be integrated into moh:airborne working crew at the late stage of the game's work being helped by the game engine's manufacters so they could know everything there is to know on how to mod the game itself. This way they really could do the best anticheat for the moh series again and win the gold medal from the community once more. Best of luck to DMW crew on getting this breakthough if possible.

[SCAF6e]

DMW exists for maybe two years now and as grown to be the ONLY option for moh users to play clean.

Sorry, but the DMW EXE can be hacked in less than 5 minutes by some. And as for being the "ONLY" option, this is incorrect as well. While it's buggy and difficult for some to use MatchWatch/Reverend by Blackbart is hands down the best anticheat availabe for MOHAA. Yes, it's a pain in the a$$ to use but it's as close to cheat free as you can get. If you think you can beat it you should contact the developer. Unless I'm mistaken he offers $100 to anyone who can hack his product.

The community problem is that the availabe conventional anticheats out there do a great job at keeping the honest people honest. It's a different story when it comes to preventing someone with too much free time and programing experience.

Bottom line here is for the gaming community to make a stand. How you ask? With your wallet. Refuse to buy any game that doesn't come out-of-the box with a industry developed and working anticheat. Has anyone ever wondered why they don't provide this. What is it that the cheater does that prevents a company like EA from developing game software that can't be hacked.? As usual it's all about money. Not that they will have to spend some, but that they won't be able make more by pushing game after game on the community.

Imagine the joy for us all if we could buy a game that was 100% cheat FREE. That the developer would update on a regular basis, that had secure code, that would offer new maps/mods etc., and could be played for years. This is something that could very well be done, but they won't do it because this does not make them money.

It's all about getting into your pocket folks. And those of us who simply want to enjoy the games and play them fairly are left to suffer the hacks.

~6e

[OldDog]

Well, now, my 2 cents is that I really don't care whose A/C it is, as long as there IS one, that:

Is integrated into the game, or, at least, co-exists smoothly, and has the support of the dev (this is pretty key to me)
Is easy for a server admin to maintain and manage (by easy, I mean that its largely automated; there's too much other stuff an admin has to deal with). I'm willing to deal with a complex setup process, if necessary, as long as there's a clear, hopefully web-based, management utility.
Is supported community-wide (no fly-by-nights) with a robust infrastructure to support it (no "the MBL is on Joe's server which is up only between the hours of 10 and Noon")
Catches/flags/bans 85-90% of the cheats (you can't expect absolute perfection here; its too volatile)Now, without knowing much about DMW, I can say that my experience with PB meets the above criteria, including the easy to maintain and manage (I have heard some admins talk about how complex PB is; I haven't found it to be so, except for the initial setup). Can someone circumvent? Absolutely...see #4. SCAF6e's point about "preventing someone with too much free time and programing experience" can NEVER be solved. ANYTHING can be cracked, with enough time, patience, and knowledge. The point of A/C software, to my way of thinking, is that it catches MOST of the cheaters. You can liken it to A/V software...when a new virus or variant or mutation comes out, the chances of catching/cleaning the first go-around is limited...but, usually within a day or so, the A/V companies have a clean for it. Will some server (or servers) get hit by a new cheat? Yes. Will it last very long with a decent A/C initiative? No. Again the 85-90% rule, above.

Having said that, with seemingly a bias towards PB, I will say that I agree with Butch. Lack of competition breeds complacency. Its time there was some competitive products. DMW looks (from my admittedly cursory examination) to be a contender. After reading SCAF6e's post, I will also look at Blackbart's product. I always liked his stuff, back when I was running an MOHs server.

I'm frankly looking forward to Airborne. With others, I'm kind of marking time with my CoD2 server, which I'm just a little sick of dealing with. However, I won't switch over unless there is an A/C capability that meets my criteria. I'll stick with CoD2 (god help me) and PB.

-OD over and out :salute:

[rudedog]

very very well said, OD.

What you don't see and is needed is not just devX buying an A/C solution to implement out of the box. You need to see DevX work on a continuing basis with the A/C guys. Just because you paid XXX for A/C , you need to continue to work with each other to make sure your customers are protected for as long as your truly going to support the game.

[OldDog]

What you don't see and is needed is not just devX buying an A/C solution to implement out of the box. You need to see DevX work on a continuing basis with the A/C guys. Just because you paid XXX for A/C , you need to continue to work with each other to make sure your customers are protected for as long as your truly going to support the game.

Agreed...you stated more clearly what I meant in #1. This has to be an on-going, cooperative effort, not just a one-off for one game instance.

[Avarell_Dalton]

This thread started so long ago i hardly remember what i wrote myself but i'm almost sure i wrote i was willing to pay for the A/C . Comparing it with A/V as OD does it even makes more sence. If that is what it takes to get a A/C as good as it can be i'm willing to subscribe to some sort of A/C service.

With the erlier moh titles in mind we all know there were some pretty good competitors writing A/C softwares. For those who's not up for cashing up, there will hopefully be free A/C S/W's.

I know in what order EA prioritize, making games is perhaps at third place, at first and second, making money. A subscription sounds like sweet music in their ears and can be worth some to those who want the best A/C.

[FPSGCMacky]

I think DMW should be given a chance to prove they can take a project like airborune on. DMW is fast becomming a anticheat of the people and while other may complain about DMW, I think the leagues are very happy with all that DMW have achieved.

Maybe the answer is be given a choice...Ie Punkbusta and DMW, double the anti cheat.

[Barstow]

I'm thinking 'out loud' here (so to speak), so please bear with me...

Maybe the issues and technology involved are different enough to explain it, but I guess I don't see why A/C isn't addressed in a manner closer to the way we do modding.

It seems that, if there were enough smarts built into the game exe, and into the interface between the client and server applications, the community would be able to develop comprehensive, game-specific A/C modules in the same way we now produce comprehensive, game-specific mods - from new wep skins to new maps to entirely new game modes (like Freeze Tag, for instance) that probably weren't envisioned by the developers.

To me, the extensibility of the MOH platform is a big part of what has extended the MOH/MP (as well as the SP) life span AND increased the value of a purchased game unit. Coudn't this also hold true for ongoing cheat management (I hesitate to use the term prevention, since it'll never be 100% and that's what prevention implies)?

It may be nice to have someone else come up with the technology needed to deal with cheating. But handing over responsibility for A/C applications to one (PB) or even two (PB, DMW) vendors has several drawbacks, IMHO.

- unless it's staffed by all-volunteers, vendors must develop for many games in order to come close to a viable business model. As such, a vendor becomes a jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, so to speak.

- the community must await patches for exploits until such time as the vendor(s), with limited resources, can get to them.

- even a field of two A/C vendors doesn't provide much in the way of incentive due to competition.

- I think we've learned that the external scanner model, as produced by PB, is not only fairly easy to bypass (pointed out elsewhere) but I've also seen reports of lag apparently due to running PB (unverified by me).


Elsewhere I suggested (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49436&postcount=61) a few new additions to the server admin console / interface. Whether or not these are the 'right' ones, I think that smarts of this type built into the game, and built into the client/server interface, would allow A/C mod developers to do the same sort of thing they've done in the context of inventing new maps and new game types. The trick in this is providing access to the client-side information required to investigate what's going on there. For instance, I think a true, admin-controlled screenshot capability - where a lo-rez copy of the screenshot was immediately viewable by the admin - would go a long way toward limiting most of the skin-mod, no-fog, no-foliage, no-smoke, glo-nade, etc., cheats I've seen.

The specifics here are going to change from game to game and even expansion pack to expansion pack, probably. I don't see how an A/C vendor can have the resources to stay up to speed on all these variations, for multiple games, in the context of constantly-evolving exploits.

In general, I think scanning aimed at detecting exploits is ignored by game vendors because it's expensive to develop, difficult to implement and is a potential performance killer. So how/when to invoke that client-side checking functionality should be configurable - as opposed to something like PB, which is either ON all the time or OFF all the time. For instance, one A/C mod might provide the ability for players to trigger scans in-game, with a menu item that provides for a way of 'Voting' in a scan (for servers that don't have full-time admins monitoring game play).

I've been out of admin'ing for some time now, so some of these thoughts may be obsolete. But I pass them along just the same.

:cool:

[valhallaweaser31]

They made a great game mohaa as i am sure we have all played in here and then left it sit to die because of no anti cheats, PB will only do its job if all source code is realeased to them, online cheating will never stop which sucks but pb right now other then dmw is the only thing we got. PB should be released with demo and if gameplay is like pacific assault i dont think i will play online, need to bring gameplay back to mohaa which was one of the most popular moh games.:D

[InfinityDevils]

They made a great game mohaa as i am sure we have all played in here and then left it sit to die because of no anti cheats, PB will only do its job if all source code is realeased to them, online cheating will never stop which sucks but pb right now other then dmw is the only thing we got. PB should be released with demo and if gameplay is like pacific assault i dont think i will play online, need to bring gameplay back to mohaa which was one of the most popular moh games.:D

You are right :salute: mohaa was a great game but Pacific Assault was doomed from the get-go and a rush job. Netcode was crap and caused server lag issues coupled with graphics that demanded top of the line computers to play. I recently installed it and had no difficulties playing it ,but now I have a dual core 6600 proc. and 8800GTX vid card. It was to demanding for its time, plain and simple. I have been following this title since it was announced as I am sure many others have hoping and praying its everything its looking to be, please EA don't screw it up with lack of support and AC, with that said, they seem to be doing things right and its looking pretty sweet (lighting, sounds, graphics and last but not least START ANYWHERE). :D

[Grimmy]

with the track record of DMW i realy hope they never get near airborne
they still cant get it to work with spearhead after all these years
what chance have they got with getting it to run with a new game do any of u people read other forums & look at all the problems DMW has that never get resolved

[Avarell_Dalton]

with the track record of DMW i realy hope they never get near airborne
they still cant get it to work with spearhead after all these years
what chance have they got with getting it to run with a new game do any of u people read other forums & look at all the problems DMW has that never get resolved
I'm no software coder and sure don't know much about anticheat so this is just a guess but has dmw any source code to work with with spearhead? Could this make as big difference as i guess it would if the're contracted for a/c in airborne?

[GaSplat]

Having source should make a huge difference, assuming they get it. Never tried their application myself, mainly because it required a client install and if the client piece does not come with the game, forget about it. Too few people will install and run. I think the same occurred to other a/c that finally concluded you had to have a client piece to be effective.

[Grimmy]

as ive been in clans & used loads of different A/Cs DMW has been the 1 that has been the most trouble for installing & getting to work ok & we still get loads of members kicked for nor running DMW when they cant even join the server without it running so it is kicking them even if they run the client
yet another problem thet has never been resolved by dmw

no matter what problems u post on dmwworld.com they never get resolved only deleted of there forums if any of u wish to look at there forums u will see just how many posts have been deleted so i still hope that they dont get near airborne just my oppinion tho

[Avarell_Dalton]

I'm no dmw fan either but i felt since we're only discussing dmw and pb here i had to excuse dmw for not working flawlessly with spearhead because of the conditions their working in. But perhaps not even PB has the source code when they're making a/c's either, i don't know.

[Grimmy]

i just copyed this from http://www.dmwworld.com/ forum ???

Jane Morrow
DMW Director




Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 287


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read what it says on the forum you are posting in.

Please note this is NOT a support forum for DMW Products. Any messages posted requiring assistance for DMW Products will be removed. Please read the FAQ's and/or Create a Ticket.
__________________

so like i keep saying were can we get support for DMW client issues then still no answer to my posts even after posting it for over 2 years

[Avarell_Dalton]

i just copyed this from http://www.dmwworld.com/ forum ???

Jane Morrow
DMW Director




Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 287


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read what it says on the forum you are posting in.

Please note this is NOT a support forum for DMW Products. Any messages posted requiring assistance for DMW Products will be removed. Please read the FAQ's and/or Create a Ticket.
__________________

so like i keep saying were can we get support for DMW client issues then still no answer to my posts even after posting it for over 2 years

I thought they had some sort of ticket system, couldn't find it now, perhaps because I wasn't signed in but i found a bunch of emailaddresses to support staff at their contacts page located here: http://dmwworld.com/view.php?page=viewarticle&article=contacts

As i said in a previous post i'm no fan of dmw either but i feel we at least should get things right about what they can and not.

[MajorDay]

Correct me if i'm wrong,but wasn't DMW made for use on the Quake engine?
Since MoH:A will be running on the Unreal engine,wouldn't they have to completely re-invent it,so to speak.
That would apply to punkbuster as well.

[sgTsTuFz]

is that the original petition group against EA when AA came out ? ...

nice yes, welcome back

[MajorDay]

is that the original petition group against EA when AA came out ? ...

nice yes, welcome back

I'VE CHANGED IT NOW LOL!

[Neil]

i just copyed this from http://www.dmwworld.com/ forum ???

Jane Morrow
DMW Director




Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 287


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read what it says on the forum you are posting in.

Please note this is NOT a support forum for DMW Products. Any messages posted requiring assistance for DMW Products will be removed. Please read the FAQ's and/or Create a Ticket.
__________________

so like i keep saying were can we get support for DMW client issues then still no answer to my posts even after posting it for over 2 years

Grimmy the FAQ's and the Ticket System are there for people to get direct help from DMW. The forums are not used because it is not a reliable source of information for people due to the fact that people outside of DMW might give out the wrong information on how to solve any problems they have. The ticket system is there so that people get the correct information from a staff member and enables DMW to keep track of users problems without having to wade through numerous posts from other people.

The help is there.

[Grim]

I just read that Airborne will be supported by Punkbuster and DMW yet I can't find anything on their (DMW) website about it? Anyone have more info?

[MajorWoody]

PB will ship, DMW hooks will be there, but not shipping.

[summit]

I don't understand why people want something like DMW supported. It isn't an ideal solution to preventing cheaters and only impedes the modding community.

The way I read it anyway was that the hooks would be there for anti-cheat applications like DMW, and that PB would be shipped with the game.

[rudedog]

You bring up an interesting point summit.

Granted we know PB will be in the game out of the box, and the game will have hooks for DMW but......

Does that mean others could take advantage of these hooks?
Would these hooks be open so anyone could use them?

[Avarell_Dalton]

You bring up an interesting point summit.

Granted we know PB will be in the game out of the box, and the game will have hooks for DMW but......

Does that mean others could take advantage of these hooks?
Would these hooks be open so anyone could use them?

I just can't believe anyone or everyone can use theese hooks. I know the last fool isn't born yet but if so this would line up in the top 100 list of stupid things done by mankind since the world begun.

Reading for the first time pb will ship with the game and thoose hooks for dmw I must say i got a bit disapointed, none of them has impressed so far...